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	<title>Comments on: Renting Versus Buying: Are There Situations Where Renting Clearly Wins?</title>
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	<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/</link>
	<description>Simple, applicable personal finance advice for the modern world</description>
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		<title>By: Jen</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-707204</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:23:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-707204</guid>
		<description>The mill rate in my area puts most homes in the $1000/month range for taxes. Since I pay $800/month for rent, I think I&#039;m making out by not owning a home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The mill rate in my area puts most homes in the $1000/month range for taxes. Since I pay $800/month for rent, I think I&#8217;m making out by not owning a home.</p>
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		<title>By: Meghan</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-583385</link>
		<dc:creator>Meghan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 17:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-583385</guid>
		<description>For me, it&#039;s an easy answer, buy a house. For those of you who live in large cities and are content renting apartments, congrats.  However, for me, it&#039;s the intangibles that make buying a house worth it.  I actually use the property for something other than to grow grass.  The 1/3 acre suburban plot provides about 90% of all fruits and veggies my family consumes plus eggs, poultry meat, honey, and beeswax.  Considering that I barter extra honey and beeswax for milk and flour and purchase beef from a local farmer (organic, grass fed at a price cheaper then CAFO beef in the supermarket!) the cost of the property is very low as it provides us with a lot.

I haven&#039;t run the numbers for what food would cost if purchased in a traditional manner, but right now our food budget (for a family of four) is about 20$/month.  You couldn&#039;t match the quality of food that we produce in a supermarket.

I cannot look at this argument from a purely financial standpoint.  By owning property you have the opportunity to provide a healthier life for you (and your family).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For me, it&#8217;s an easy answer, buy a house. For those of you who live in large cities and are content renting apartments, congrats.  However, for me, it&#8217;s the intangibles that make buying a house worth it.  I actually use the property for something other than to grow grass.  The 1/3 acre suburban plot provides about 90% of all fruits and veggies my family consumes plus eggs, poultry meat, honey, and beeswax.  Considering that I barter extra honey and beeswax for milk and flour and purchase beef from a local farmer (organic, grass fed at a price cheaper then CAFO beef in the supermarket!) the cost of the property is very low as it provides us with a lot.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t run the numbers for what food would cost if purchased in a traditional manner, but right now our food budget (for a family of four) is about 20$/month.  You couldn&#8217;t match the quality of food that we produce in a supermarket.</p>
<p>I cannot look at this argument from a purely financial standpoint.  By owning property you have the opportunity to provide a healthier life for you (and your family).</p>
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		<title>By: robert</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-522231</link>
		<dc:creator>robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 19:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-522231</guid>
		<description>What is up with this site? You are giving the reasons for BUYING, NOT RENTING! Housing is a business, so you must keep all of your options on the table including renting. First always assume you will be paying a mortgage for 30 years (because that is what you are agreeeing to). Even though you can sell later buying assumes you want to stay in the same place for a number of years. If you dont plan on staying in the same place for a number of years DONT BUY, RENT! On this same line of thought, If you dont want to stay in the area where you can afford to live for several years then DON&#039;T BUY, RENT. Compare the renting market to the housing market in your area (while related these 2 markets aren&#039;t the same). If renting is significantly cheaper (or housing is significantly more expensive). DON&#039;T BUT, RENT! Finally  take a good look at the house you want to buy. Look at the area where you are going to live. Make sure that the house is in good shape. A lot of people are trying to dump their worst place on a sucker. (they hope that sucker is you, and believe me they have some real holes) Remember housing is a business just as renting is. They want to make as much of a profit (if not more) as a landlord does. They want to make that profit at your expense where you dont have the option to terminate your lease after 1 year. And agreeing to buy a 150k house for $250k is a good way to help them. Be ruthless, because this is your livelyhood as much as it is theirs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is up with this site? You are giving the reasons for BUYING, NOT RENTING! Housing is a business, so you must keep all of your options on the table including renting. First always assume you will be paying a mortgage for 30 years (because that is what you are agreeeing to). Even though you can sell later buying assumes you want to stay in the same place for a number of years. If you dont plan on staying in the same place for a number of years DONT BUY, RENT! On this same line of thought, If you dont want to stay in the area where you can afford to live for several years then DON&#8217;T BUY, RENT. Compare the renting market to the housing market in your area (while related these 2 markets aren&#8217;t the same). If renting is significantly cheaper (or housing is significantly more expensive). DON&#8217;T BUT, RENT! Finally  take a good look at the house you want to buy. Look at the area where you are going to live. Make sure that the house is in good shape. A lot of people are trying to dump their worst place on a sucker. (they hope that sucker is you, and believe me they have some real holes) Remember housing is a business just as renting is. They want to make as much of a profit (if not more) as a landlord does. They want to make that profit at your expense where you dont have the option to terminate your lease after 1 year. And agreeing to buy a 150k house for $250k is a good way to help them. Be ruthless, because this is your livelyhood as much as it is theirs.</p>
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		<title>By: roberto ribas</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-433942</link>
		<dc:creator>roberto ribas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 02:19:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-433942</guid>
		<description>I have cash to buy a home, and yet your analyis is very very bad: 1. homes are dropping in price, why should I spend more to buy now? they are not dropping for unobservable reasons, they are dropping due to very high supply relative to demand, price/rent ratio being too high for investors, and ridiculously high foreclosure activity, plus job losses. EACH of those can easily be watched, so it is fairly simple to see what will happen: prices will keep dropping. I&#039;ll buy when the market seems to make sense to buy, your analysis on this article is very weak.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have cash to buy a home, and yet your analyis is very very bad: 1. homes are dropping in price, why should I spend more to buy now? they are not dropping for unobservable reasons, they are dropping due to very high supply relative to demand, price/rent ratio being too high for investors, and ridiculously high foreclosure activity, plus job losses. EACH of those can easily be watched, so it is fairly simple to see what will happen: prices will keep dropping. I&#8217;ll buy when the market seems to make sense to buy, your analysis on this article is very weak.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-329146</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 04:24:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-329146</guid>
		<description>I have to agree with the others here that the author is not looking at the situation many of us face out here in California.  My example:

I live in Monterey, California, and rent a 2 bedroom place (1,110 square feet), with a garage for only $1,175 a month.  In addition, it includes the garbage, sewer, water, internet, cable, and all landscaping (total value of all of those is around $400 a month).  

If I was to buy a similar size house in decent shape with the same commute time, I would be looking at $500,000 at an absolute minimum.  Assuming I could put 10% down, my mortgage would still be $2,697 a month before any additional costs were tacked on.  Apples to apples, the strict monthly comparison is $1,175 vs. around $3,500 (after other costs plus taxes are added).  Even with the tax breaks, it doesn&#039;t come out ahead.

I used to own a house in markets where it made sense. However, around here it does not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with the others here that the author is not looking at the situation many of us face out here in California.  My example:</p>
<p>I live in Monterey, California, and rent a 2 bedroom place (1,110 square feet), with a garage for only $1,175 a month.  In addition, it includes the garbage, sewer, water, internet, cable, and all landscaping (total value of all of those is around $400 a month).  </p>
<p>If I was to buy a similar size house in decent shape with the same commute time, I would be looking at $500,000 at an absolute minimum.  Assuming I could put 10% down, my mortgage would still be $2,697 a month before any additional costs were tacked on.  Apples to apples, the strict monthly comparison is $1,175 vs. around $3,500 (after other costs plus taxes are added).  Even with the tax breaks, it doesn&#8217;t come out ahead.</p>
<p>I used to own a house in markets where it made sense. However, around here it does not.</p>
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		<title>By: karin</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-68646</link>
		<dc:creator>karin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 11:09:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-68646</guid>
		<description>my questions is this: i&#039;m paying about 3100 in rent right now for a 1 br.  i can put together a down payment for a 1br in my area, but with taxes, and association fee&#039;s I&#039;ll be paying about 3800.  i&#039;ve been told by my accountant however that since i have no other tax deductions buying is a good move for me. given the current market condiditons does this make sense? Also, should I wait until I can afford a 2 br to maximize resale value?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>my questions is this: i&#8217;m paying about 3100 in rent right now for a 1 br.  i can put together a down payment for a 1br in my area, but with taxes, and association fee&#8217;s I&#8217;ll be paying about 3800.  i&#8217;ve been told by my accountant however that since i have no other tax deductions buying is a good move for me. given the current market condiditons does this make sense? Also, should I wait until I can afford a 2 br to maximize resale value?</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-14807</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Apr 2007 16:02:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-14807</guid>
		<description>Hi.  Good stuff. 
Looks like I might be a bit late to the party, but here goes…

This question taps into some strongly held cultural currents in the U.S., and the truth often has difficulty emerging.  This is due in large part to the complexity that surrounds home purchase decisions.  By comparison renting is the height of simplicity: it costs you “X” per month.  End of analysis.

It can be worth keeping in mind that there are many interested voices in our economy arguing the benefits of ownership, while very few stand to profit from your decision not to buy.  The only person I’ve been able to find – in my whole life (36 years) – to argue against me buying a home is my fee-only financial planner, who is paid strictly on an hourly basis for his advice.  You’re unlikely to get a fully-informed, balanced view from anyone even remotely connected to the real estate economy, nor from current homeowners, who obviously have their own reasons for believing certain things.  Just something to think about, along the way.

There was a feature in the Wall Street Journal lately by David Crook (who wrote the &quot;Complete Real-Estate Investing Guidebook&quot; - recommended) titled &quot;Your Home Isn&#039;t the Investment You Think It Is&quot; - published 3/12/07
Here&#039;s just a small excerpt:

&quot;...houses have become substitute credit cards, as profligate owners borrow their equity to finance everything from cars to vacations. Among thriftier owners, the equity they have built up in the family home has become a vital part of retirement planning -- a &quot;fourth leg&quot; of the now-unstable &quot;company pension/personal savings/Social Security&quot; stool that was long the model for a financially secure old age.

“Unfortunately for both groups, however, houses are not very good investments. For the grasshoppers, there&#039;s nothing quite as stupid as paying off your 2002 trip to Orlando in 2032, when you finally settle up your refinanced &quot;cash out&quot; 30-year mortgage. And for the ants, economic studies have demonstrated over and over that houses (1) cost more than most people make when they sell and (2) rarely match the long-term returns of stocks or other investments.

“And that&#039;s doubly true today, with much of the U.S. well into a real-estate recession. It&#039;s unlikely that homeowners in once-booming areas will see a return of skyrocketing prices anytime soon.&quot;

I&#039;ve done a large amount of financial analysis on the rent v. buy question, because I&#039;ve been wanting to buy for over a decade, and am finally just barely in a position to do so.  I’ve found that the typical “Buy vs. Rent” calculators are overly simplistic and limited. And since I&#039;ve gone through the pain of getting an MBA, and currently work as an investment analyst (full disclosure: not in real estate), I&#039;ve got some tools to bring to the problem.  So I made an elaborate spreadsheet model and asked it: am I better off buying or renting?  I defined &quot;better off&quot; in terms of the Net Present Value of my total wealth, and considered various holding periods for the purchased home. 

(Re: Net Present Value: Trent points out that most arguments that challenge the benefits of buying rely on the assumption that the extra cash available when renting will be invested somehow.  This is true, and must be true if we are going to compare the “wealth effect” of buying to that of renting.  We must look at it this way if we are to judge to what degree buying the home is a good investment.  The analysis is not comparing how wealthy we’d be if we bought a home vs. how wealthy we’d be if we took a bunch of vacations.  That’s a different question, and a much easier one to answer.  Our assumption here is that we are trying to determine what choices we can make to give us the greatest total wealth, an assumption that requires us to also assume that if we rent we will make good choices with the extra money.  If we find that we are talking ourselves into buying a home because “we’d just waste the extra money anyhow,” then we have a deeper set of issues to address when it comes to our personal financial management practices.)

By assuming that we would invest the extra money that renting might provide each month, and by picking a rate of return that we think is most likely for this money (our “discount rate”), we are focusing on the question: is buying a house a good investment?  We can’t answer that question without first answering the question:  “…compared to what?”  (Answer: the annual rate of return of the next-best use of your money.  Other debt you could pay down, which costs X% to carry?; long-run stock market returns of Y%?  Other?  Your choice.)

The answer to the rent v. buy question is, sorry to say but maybe not a surprise: &quot;it depends.&quot;  And it depends on a lot of things, because a complex set of factors come to bear on determining how well we’ll make out on our decision to buy a home.

The starting point is to get clear about what we are comparing the home to, since it&#039;s not an option to go without shelter.  Our current apartment may or may not be the relevant point of reference.  If we did not end up buying a home, would we stay in this apartment or move across town to the nicer one that&#039;s closer to work?  Some of the previous comments address this issue.  To compare apples to apples, we&#039;d need to get a pretty good idea of what rent we&#039;d need to pay in order to get an apartment that is equally (approximately) satisfactory to us as the homes we are considering.  

Once we&#039;ve established this, we can find the home that is equivalently satisfactory (how ever we define this), and run the numbers on the two choices.

At that point, the analysis becomes dominated by a few critical assumptions that we need to make.  Key among these:

What is our relevant discount rate? 

What will our interest rate be on the mortgage?

At what rate will the value of the home increase?

For how long are we most likely to hold the house?

At what rate will the Assessor&#039;s office increase the assessment, and therefore the taxes?

At what yearly rate would the rent increase, in the comparative apartment?

What Standard Deduction will we get from the IRS, if we do not buy a home and itemize, and at what rate will the Standard Deduction increase?

What is our Federal Income Tax rate?

How big will the closing costs be?

What will maintenance costs on the home be, and how will they grow, year by year?

When we sell, what percentage will go to transaction costs (sales taxes, realtor fees, sprucing-up costs)?

How much will we pay for insurance?

Will we be paying PMI?

The size of down payment may or may not be an important factor, and Ian gets at this with his last post.  The relationship between the mortgage interest rate, the appreciation rate of property, and our relevant discount rate all play a role in determining how good a use of money it is to have a larger down payment.  (There are other good reasons to have a large down payment, though… better rates; avoid PMI; a credit cushion, etc.)

What we find when we account for all of these elements together is that most rule-of-thumb type of guidelines are too limited given the variety that exists in personal circumstances and local real estate markets (and as previous contributors have pointed out, the relationship between the local rental market and local purchase market is very important).  It’s possible, for instance, to be better off buying even if our current rent is less than the interest portion of our mortgage would be, if property values are rising at an abnormally high clip (for just one example).

If you’ve read this far, I’ll go on to mention that I’ve also given my analytical spreadsheet model the ability to consider owner-occupancy situations for multi-unit properties.  Doing so made the math quite a bit more complex, but was very interesting.  Although there are plenty of details there that we could talk about, the key “take away” was that just because it can be very good financially to be a landlord does not necessarily mean that it is financially bad to be a renter.  The wealth-transfer dynamics are not a zero-sum game.  The tax environment for landlords has a lot to do with this.

If anyone out there would like me to run their numbers for them or otherwise talk about these issues, please feel free to contact me.  

All the best.
- Jesse
haifley@gmail.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi.  Good stuff.<br />
Looks like I might be a bit late to the party, but here goes…</p>
<p>This question taps into some strongly held cultural currents in the U.S., and the truth often has difficulty emerging.  This is due in large part to the complexity that surrounds home purchase decisions.  By comparison renting is the height of simplicity: it costs you “X” per month.  End of analysis.</p>
<p>It can be worth keeping in mind that there are many interested voices in our economy arguing the benefits of ownership, while very few stand to profit from your decision not to buy.  The only person I’ve been able to find – in my whole life (36 years) – to argue against me buying a home is my fee-only financial planner, who is paid strictly on an hourly basis for his advice.  You’re unlikely to get a fully-informed, balanced view from anyone even remotely connected to the real estate economy, nor from current homeowners, who obviously have their own reasons for believing certain things.  Just something to think about, along the way.</p>
<p>There was a feature in the Wall Street Journal lately by David Crook (who wrote the &#8220;Complete Real-Estate Investing Guidebook&#8221; &#8211; recommended) titled &#8220;Your Home Isn&#8217;t the Investment You Think It Is&#8221; &#8211; published 3/12/07<br />
Here&#8217;s just a small excerpt:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;houses have become substitute credit cards, as profligate owners borrow their equity to finance everything from cars to vacations. Among thriftier owners, the equity they have built up in the family home has become a vital part of retirement planning &#8212; a &#8220;fourth leg&#8221; of the now-unstable &#8220;company pension/personal savings/Social Security&#8221; stool that was long the model for a financially secure old age.</p>
<p>“Unfortunately for both groups, however, houses are not very good investments. For the grasshoppers, there&#8217;s nothing quite as stupid as paying off your 2002 trip to Orlando in 2032, when you finally settle up your refinanced &#8220;cash out&#8221; 30-year mortgage. And for the ants, economic studies have demonstrated over and over that houses (1) cost more than most people make when they sell and (2) rarely match the long-term returns of stocks or other investments.</p>
<p>“And that&#8217;s doubly true today, with much of the U.S. well into a real-estate recession. It&#8217;s unlikely that homeowners in once-booming areas will see a return of skyrocketing prices anytime soon.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve done a large amount of financial analysis on the rent v. buy question, because I&#8217;ve been wanting to buy for over a decade, and am finally just barely in a position to do so.  I’ve found that the typical “Buy vs. Rent” calculators are overly simplistic and limited. And since I&#8217;ve gone through the pain of getting an MBA, and currently work as an investment analyst (full disclosure: not in real estate), I&#8217;ve got some tools to bring to the problem.  So I made an elaborate spreadsheet model and asked it: am I better off buying or renting?  I defined &#8220;better off&#8221; in terms of the Net Present Value of my total wealth, and considered various holding periods for the purchased home. </p>
<p>(Re: Net Present Value: Trent points out that most arguments that challenge the benefits of buying rely on the assumption that the extra cash available when renting will be invested somehow.  This is true, and must be true if we are going to compare the “wealth effect” of buying to that of renting.  We must look at it this way if we are to judge to what degree buying the home is a good investment.  The analysis is not comparing how wealthy we’d be if we bought a home vs. how wealthy we’d be if we took a bunch of vacations.  That’s a different question, and a much easier one to answer.  Our assumption here is that we are trying to determine what choices we can make to give us the greatest total wealth, an assumption that requires us to also assume that if we rent we will make good choices with the extra money.  If we find that we are talking ourselves into buying a home because “we’d just waste the extra money anyhow,” then we have a deeper set of issues to address when it comes to our personal financial management practices.)</p>
<p>By assuming that we would invest the extra money that renting might provide each month, and by picking a rate of return that we think is most likely for this money (our “discount rate”), we are focusing on the question: is buying a house a good investment?  We can’t answer that question without first answering the question:  “…compared to what?”  (Answer: the annual rate of return of the next-best use of your money.  Other debt you could pay down, which costs X% to carry?; long-run stock market returns of Y%?  Other?  Your choice.)</p>
<p>The answer to the rent v. buy question is, sorry to say but maybe not a surprise: &#8220;it depends.&#8221;  And it depends on a lot of things, because a complex set of factors come to bear on determining how well we’ll make out on our decision to buy a home.</p>
<p>The starting point is to get clear about what we are comparing the home to, since it&#8217;s not an option to go without shelter.  Our current apartment may or may not be the relevant point of reference.  If we did not end up buying a home, would we stay in this apartment or move across town to the nicer one that&#8217;s closer to work?  Some of the previous comments address this issue.  To compare apples to apples, we&#8217;d need to get a pretty good idea of what rent we&#8217;d need to pay in order to get an apartment that is equally (approximately) satisfactory to us as the homes we are considering.  </p>
<p>Once we&#8217;ve established this, we can find the home that is equivalently satisfactory (how ever we define this), and run the numbers on the two choices.</p>
<p>At that point, the analysis becomes dominated by a few critical assumptions that we need to make.  Key among these:</p>
<p>What is our relevant discount rate? </p>
<p>What will our interest rate be on the mortgage?</p>
<p>At what rate will the value of the home increase?</p>
<p>For how long are we most likely to hold the house?</p>
<p>At what rate will the Assessor&#8217;s office increase the assessment, and therefore the taxes?</p>
<p>At what yearly rate would the rent increase, in the comparative apartment?</p>
<p>What Standard Deduction will we get from the IRS, if we do not buy a home and itemize, and at what rate will the Standard Deduction increase?</p>
<p>What is our Federal Income Tax rate?</p>
<p>How big will the closing costs be?</p>
<p>What will maintenance costs on the home be, and how will they grow, year by year?</p>
<p>When we sell, what percentage will go to transaction costs (sales taxes, realtor fees, sprucing-up costs)?</p>
<p>How much will we pay for insurance?</p>
<p>Will we be paying PMI?</p>
<p>The size of down payment may or may not be an important factor, and Ian gets at this with his last post.  The relationship between the mortgage interest rate, the appreciation rate of property, and our relevant discount rate all play a role in determining how good a use of money it is to have a larger down payment.  (There are other good reasons to have a large down payment, though… better rates; avoid PMI; a credit cushion, etc.)</p>
<p>What we find when we account for all of these elements together is that most rule-of-thumb type of guidelines are too limited given the variety that exists in personal circumstances and local real estate markets (and as previous contributors have pointed out, the relationship between the local rental market and local purchase market is very important).  It’s possible, for instance, to be better off buying even if our current rent is less than the interest portion of our mortgage would be, if property values are rising at an abnormally high clip (for just one example).</p>
<p>If you’ve read this far, I’ll go on to mention that I’ve also given my analytical spreadsheet model the ability to consider owner-occupancy situations for multi-unit properties.  Doing so made the math quite a bit more complex, but was very interesting.  Although there are plenty of details there that we could talk about, the key “take away” was that just because it can be very good financially to be a landlord does not necessarily mean that it is financially bad to be a renter.  The wealth-transfer dynamics are not a zero-sum game.  The tax environment for landlords has a lot to do with this.</p>
<p>If anyone out there would like me to run their numbers for them or otherwise talk about these issues, please feel free to contact me.  </p>
<p>All the best.<br />
- Jesse<br />
<a href="mailto:haifley@gmail.com">haifley@gmail.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Trent</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-8322</link>
		<dc:creator>Trent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-8322</guid>
		<description>In areas where housing costs are really high, &quot;not much saved for a down payment&quot; can mean a seemingly big pile of money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In areas where housing costs are really high, &#8220;not much saved for a down payment&#8221; can mean a seemingly big pile of money.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-8320</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:21:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-8320</guid>
		<description>&quot;Actually, I am accounting for the situation where you’re living in an expensive situation. I’m not sure what you’re saying, to tell the truth; the same rules apply no matter how much homes cost in your area.&quot;

If this was directed at my first comment, I meant to point out that your three categories are misleading. Rent is cheaper than a mortgage payment for the vast majority of people. In many high population areas, renting is cheaper by a factor of 2 or more.

The claim that renting is generally only cheaper than buying &quot;if you have almost nothing saved for a down payment&quot; (which I quoted in the first comment) is simply false for the majority of people right now. Furthermore, it doesn&#039;t consider the lost opportunity cost of the down payment. Even if I had $200K saved up for a down payment (I actually only have about $30K), I might not get as good a return in a house as I do in other investments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Actually, I am accounting for the situation where you’re living in an expensive situation. I’m not sure what you’re saying, to tell the truth; the same rules apply no matter how much homes cost in your area.&#8221;</p>
<p>If this was directed at my first comment, I meant to point out that your three categories are misleading. Rent is cheaper than a mortgage payment for the vast majority of people. In many high population areas, renting is cheaper by a factor of 2 or more.</p>
<p>The claim that renting is generally only cheaper than buying &#8220;if you have almost nothing saved for a down payment&#8221; (which I quoted in the first comment) is simply false for the majority of people right now. Furthermore, it doesn&#8217;t consider the lost opportunity cost of the down payment. Even if I had $200K saved up for a down payment (I actually only have about $30K), I might not get as good a return in a house as I do in other investments.</p>
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		<title>By: Gabe</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-8252</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-8252</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’m not sure what you’re saying, to tell the truth;&quot;

Now that I&#039;m re-reading my comment, I&#039;m not sure what I&#039;m trying to say either. I think I was just venting my frustrations over my current situation. Sorry about that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I’m not sure what you’re saying, to tell the truth;&#8221;</p>
<p>Now that I&#8217;m re-reading my comment, I&#8217;m not sure what I&#8217;m trying to say either. I think I was just venting my frustrations over my current situation. Sorry about that.</p>
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		<title>By: Citoahc</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-8242</link>
		<dc:creator>Citoahc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:22:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-8242</guid>
		<description>Trent, 

While this applies if you are going to be in the house for the long term things can change dramatically if you are only going to be there short term.  If you are going to be in an area for less than two years and don&#039;t intend to turn the place into an investment property you have to add all the associated costs (closing, higher insurance...) and the extra time you will have to spend selling the place.  2k in closing costs spread over two years is and extra 80 a month.  Home owners insurance would cost about a hundred dollars a month more than my current renters.  That is almost 200 more per month.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trent, </p>
<p>While this applies if you are going to be in the house for the long term things can change dramatically if you are only going to be there short term.  If you are going to be in an area for less than two years and don&#8217;t intend to turn the place into an investment property you have to add all the associated costs (closing, higher insurance&#8230;) and the extra time you will have to spend selling the place.  2k in closing costs spread over two years is and extra 80 a month.  Home owners insurance would cost about a hundred dollars a month more than my current renters.  That is almost 200 more per month.</p>
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		<title>By: plonkee</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-8185</link>
		<dc:creator>plonkee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-8185</guid>
		<description>Trent: 
I think you&#039;re right. If renting is cheaper that is the better option financially and if buying is cheaper that is the better option financially. It all depends on a good definition of cheaper (which you&#039;ve probably got).

I&#039;m going to run through my figures later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trent:<br />
I think you&#8217;re right. If renting is cheaper that is the better option financially and if buying is cheaper that is the better option financially. It all depends on a good definition of cheaper (which you&#8217;ve probably got).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m going to run through my figures later.</p>
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		<title>By: js</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-8143</link>
		<dc:creator>js</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 03:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-8143</guid>
		<description>I think bottom line is some people just can&#039;t afford to buy period.  Rent in Los Angeles takes 29% of my income already and housing would be significantly more.  There comes a certain point where you just can&#039;t afford it.  

Although there are those that would say that anyone can afford housing: just get your ARM, negative amortization, no money down loan here.  And frankly that is the only way many people are buying the houses out there.  But I think that jig is just about up.  

Also most people I know that own housing are driving an hour and often more to and from work each day.  I&#039;m not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think bottom line is some people just can&#8217;t afford to buy period.  Rent in Los Angeles takes 29% of my income already and housing would be significantly more.  There comes a certain point where you just can&#8217;t afford it.  </p>
<p>Although there are those that would say that anyone can afford housing: just get your ARM, negative amortization, no money down loan here.  And frankly that is the only way many people are buying the houses out there.  But I think that jig is just about up.  </p>
<p>Also most people I know that own housing are driving an hour and often more to and from work each day.  I&#8217;m not.</p>
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		<title>By: Trent</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-8133</link>
		<dc:creator>Trent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 02:29:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-8133</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a different subject entirely, though.  I would agree that if you&#039;re paying rent that&#039;s WAY below any sort of cost, then a down payment in your current area may not be a realistic goal, but that&#039;s also true here, with people working low-wage jobs and living in apartments that are about $150 a month (yes, in rural Iowa, these exist).  It&#039;s the same situation, just about 8x lower in every regard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a different subject entirely, though.  I would agree that if you&#8217;re paying rent that&#8217;s WAY below any sort of cost, then a down payment in your current area may not be a realistic goal, but that&#8217;s also true here, with people working low-wage jobs and living in apartments that are about $150 a month (yes, in rural Iowa, these exist).  It&#8217;s the same situation, just about 8x lower in every regard.</p>
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		<title>By: Lazy Man and Money</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-8132</link>
		<dc:creator>Lazy Man and Money</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 02:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-8132</guid>
		<description>I can make a solid case for renting in Silicon Valley (where I am).  My two-bedroom, 1.5 bath,  1100 sq. foot place is $1900 a month to rent.  I&#039;ve looked through a lot of real estate magazines and the  equivalent is around $700K.  

That means that I have to come up with $140K. Assuming that&#039;s not a problem, it looks like my payment (with great credit and that 20% down) would be $3448.02 a month.  Interest is around $2916.67 to start and $2766.19 in year 5 according to the amort. charts.  It&#039;s hard for me to make an argument for buying in my area.

Typically, I&#039;m right there with buying, but in some markets it just doesn&#039;t seem to add up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can make a solid case for renting in Silicon Valley (where I am).  My two-bedroom, 1.5 bath,  1100 sq. foot place is $1900 a month to rent.  I&#8217;ve looked through a lot of real estate magazines and the  equivalent is around $700K.  </p>
<p>That means that I have to come up with $140K. Assuming that&#8217;s not a problem, it looks like my payment (with great credit and that 20% down) would be $3448.02 a month.  Interest is around $2916.67 to start and $2766.19 in year 5 according to the amort. charts.  It&#8217;s hard for me to make an argument for buying in my area.</p>
<p>Typically, I&#8217;m right there with buying, but in some markets it just doesn&#8217;t seem to add up.</p>
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		<title>By: !wanda</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-8131</link>
		<dc:creator>!wanda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 02:22:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-8131</guid>
		<description>Trent, the point that you&#039;re asserting, that your post covered the situation in large, expensive cities, is true.  However, the posters are objecting to your statement one should be saving a lot each month *for a down payment*.  In cities with prohibitively large down payments, perhaps it would be better just to invest the money for the long term to fulfill other goals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trent, the point that you&#8217;re asserting, that your post covered the situation in large, expensive cities, is true.  However, the posters are objecting to your statement one should be saving a lot each month *for a down payment*.  In cities with prohibitively large down payments, perhaps it would be better just to invest the money for the long term to fulfill other goals.</p>
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		<title>By: Trent</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-8122</link>
		<dc:creator>Trent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-8122</guid>
		<description>Actually, I am accounting for the situation where you&#039;re living in an expensive situation.  I&#039;m not sure what you&#039;re saying, to tell the truth; the same rules apply no matter how much homes cost in your area.  If you have a rent that&#039;s lower than the interest on your prospective home loan, you shouldn&#039;t be buying yet, but if you have a rent that&#039;s higher than the total monthly payment, then you should look seriously at buying.  It does not matter what the amounts are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I am accounting for the situation where you&#8217;re living in an expensive situation.  I&#8217;m not sure what you&#8217;re saying, to tell the truth; the same rules apply no matter how much homes cost in your area.  If you have a rent that&#8217;s lower than the interest on your prospective home loan, you shouldn&#8217;t be buying yet, but if you have a rent that&#8217;s higher than the total monthly payment, then you should look seriously at buying.  It does not matter what the amounts are.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-8114</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-8114</guid>
		<description>&quot;In most areas, this is only true if you have almost nothing saved for a down payment&quot;

That might be true, if you don&#039;t bother to consider population. To anyone who lives in New York, California, Florida, and any big city along a coast (you know, where 70% of Americans live), the suggestion is laughable.

I notice that the basic assumptions of the article are biased toward home ownership: No mention of property tax, home maintenance, transaction costs, etc. All of that can make a difference that you might not see just by looking at the mortgage payment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In most areas, this is only true if you have almost nothing saved for a down payment&#8221;</p>
<p>That might be true, if you don&#8217;t bother to consider population. To anyone who lives in New York, California, Florida, and any big city along a coast (you know, where 70% of Americans live), the suggestion is laughable.</p>
<p>I notice that the basic assumptions of the article are biased toward home ownership: No mention of property tax, home maintenance, transaction costs, etc. All of that can make a difference that you might not see just by looking at the mortgage payment.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Lippard</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-8104</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Lippard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:56:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-8104</guid>
		<description>Einzige did some similar calculations, with specifics for the current Phoenix market, &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://einzige.blogspot.com/2007/02/why-own-when-you-can-rent.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/A&gt;.  At the moment, you&#039;re much better off renting in Phoenix.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Einzige did some similar calculations, with specifics for the current Phoenix market, <a HREF="http://einzige.blogspot.com/2007/02/why-own-when-you-can-rent.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.  At the moment, you&#8217;re much better off renting in Phoenix.</p>
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		<title>By: Gabe</title>
		<link>http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/comment-page-1/#comment-8087</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:57:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/02/27/renting-versus-buying-are-there-situations-where-renting-clearly-wins/#comment-8087</guid>
		<description>Not all of us are in the most ideal situation to buy a home - hence we rent. 

You&#039;re apparently not accounting for those who live in expensive urban and suburban areas where putting together a decent down payment is a challenge. Not to mention the fact that the mortage and property tax payments will likely be higher than what we&#039;re paying in rent. 

Oh and I didn&#039;t mention a scenario where you&#039;re trying to rebuild your credit just so you could maybe have the hope of qualifying for a home loan that won&#039;t blow your budget to smithereens. 

It&#039;s not always as easy as you make it seem, Trent. I&#039;m sure if I lived in Iowa I might have an easier time getting my act together to buy a home. But my career and family obligations keep me renting in the big city for the time being.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not all of us are in the most ideal situation to buy a home &#8211; hence we rent. </p>
<p>You&#8217;re apparently not accounting for those who live in expensive urban and suburban areas where putting together a decent down payment is a challenge. Not to mention the fact that the mortage and property tax payments will likely be higher than what we&#8217;re paying in rent. </p>
<p>Oh and I didn&#8217;t mention a scenario where you&#8217;re trying to rebuild your credit just so you could maybe have the hope of qualifying for a home loan that won&#8217;t blow your budget to smithereens. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s not always as easy as you make it seem, Trent. I&#8217;m sure if I lived in Iowa I might have an easier time getting my act together to buy a home. But my career and family obligations keep me renting in the big city for the time being.</p>
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