thats what taxpayers are paying for, yet no one balks at that. I’m sorry but someone needs to say it, college in this nation is a scam…so are student loans. Teachers get paid little because there is little value in education, the goal of education in this nation is not to produce thinkers, no, its to produce a nation of drones that will work for bare minimum and who will not dare question authority and will believe their benefactor, the government, has their best intents in mind.

Meanwhile the Taxpayers, keep footing the bill [middle class workers and working poor especially] for the corporate welfare and perks and lobbyists who run our government. -

Making money for college so easily available (upfront) encourages people to make bad economic decisions and is the reason that so many jobs now require a college degree (as the supply of college graduates is greatly increased). Moreover, there is an incentive for school districts to push students into making career choices requiring college, as this makes their “college bound” statistics all the more impressive.

But these poor economic choices fall squarely on those who make them, in a way that they don’t in other areas of the economy.

If a person wants to undertake a business venture and needs to acquire a loan for it, a bank will take many things into consideration. Has this person a track record of being able to borrow and repay money; does he have any experience in this particular kind of business; what is the market like for this kind of business. If the bank does not like the answers to these questions, it will not make the loan.

This isn’t out kindness; it’s because banks know that if the borrower’s plans go wrong, he can claim bankruptcy.

Student loans, however, are completely different. A person could major in basket weaving and still be hounded for the rest of his life by creditors. Students are the only class of people not protected by bankruptcy. Your small businessman, corporate bogeyman, or idiot poker player are all protected from the bad choices they make.

Why?

What’s next, making those in credit card debt out to be victims? Oh right, we’re already at that point.

You’ll never see me begging for a handout, you chose your career, shut up and deal with it … my taxes shouldn’t be covering it!

I will say this. In New York teachers have to have a MINIMUM of a Master’s degree. If we want to change our teaching title (ie: become a library media specialist rather than a straight elementary teacher) we can expect to get an additional Master’s degree. I went to state college, nothing fancy, but I still have almost $90,000 in student loans. I wasn’t one of the geniuses, I was an average student. I took every scholarship I was offered, but most were not more than $500-$1,000 a year. Unlike many people I didn’t take assistance from my parents to pay for college. I figure it’s my education and I’ll pay for it. So now that $30,000 teaching job is paying $90,000 in debt plus regular living expenses.

I’ll be the first to admit that the summers off is an incredible perk. I love the teaching schedule and there a lot of benefits.

One thing noone has mentioned thus far is family. I’m working hard to pay off my student loans. My husband has his own loans, about half as much as I do, to pay off, so he works full time as well. We have two small children in daycare. Even in the rural area we live daycare still runs us almost $1,000 a month. That on top of a mortgage is A LOT!! However there is no option for me to be a stay at home mom during these early years because I have my loans to pay off.

I’m not trying to feed you a sob story. We’re getting by. We’re not asking anyone else to pay for our loans, we’re both working full time in decent jobs. However the reality is that life happens. I did go to one of those ‘inexpensive’ colleges mentioned previously and I still racked up these bills.

33K is the average salary around here. A starting teacher around here with a BA and no experience or graduate credit will earn around 25K. This is a well-paying district. And when my husband and I were looking into buying a house, I was certainly not offered any government help due to my profession.

Oh, and while I’m aware of the option of teaching at an in-need school in exchange for forgiveness of up to 50k of my student loans, my certification isn’t in an area which many schools have, so it’s an option which I cannot exercise. Again, it comes down to your choices, what you love vs. your earning potential – getting certified in an area about which you feel passionate, or getting certified in an area which is more commonly taught, but in which you’re not particularly interested.

Maybe it was 120 years ago; I’m pretty sure that after the Civil War it was in the single digits, and that high-school graduates around 100-150 years ago could be qualified to teach high school. I’m not a historian, I’m afraid.

I just want to be sure we’re comparing apples to apples, at least insofar as you can still have apples after 100 years of knowledge and technology explosion. I think we have made losses and gains, and I’m not sure what you get upon totting them up.

Education, like health care, is a terrible example of a free market. It’s not a free market at all. The government is a major player in the education and has been for a very long time. That is not a free market.

@Mitch:

“I don’t know Joseph Sobran, but does he realize that a hundred years ago only about 10 or 15 percent of teenagers attended high school? Right now that same group, the top 10 to 15 percent, often does study languages (ancient or modern).”

I’m not so sure about your numbers for education. By 1907, most states in the Union required school attendance up to the age of at least 16. But that’s about all I know on the subject, so my knowledge in the area is pretty limited.

However, Sobran’s point wasn’t that more kids should be taking ancient languages. His point was about the decline in educational standards.

By attending a university, one is supposed to be engaging in higher education. It is completely backwards for a university to have to teach admitted “college” students subjects at a level below that which they were supposed to have achieved in high school.

@ Nightingale

You weren’t “stuck with a 35K a year bill” for college. You didn’t have to go to the most expensive school to which you were accepted.

That said, I do think it’s pretty evil that a “you are expected to go to college” message is forced upon well-performing high-school students. Even more sinister is the “you should go to the best school that accepts you” message.

But I’m sorry to hear about your situation. Seriously. You drank the Kool-Aid, but it was probably given to you by a lot of adults you really respected and who probably really thought they were looking out for your best interest.

Well, let me break it to you guys, but even geniuses don’t get scholarships these days. I was valedictorian of a prestigious high school and got little more than three thousand dollars in grants, no money available from parents or government loans, so I got stuck with a $35k a year bill and only private loans as an option to pay with.

Given the choice between living the life so many of my friends currently are and struggling through living off a retail job until I’m 70 years old, and going to college with the very slim chance that I’ll actually make at least $40k a year in a “real” job, I chose college because everyone always says a college education pays off.

Well, I’m making less money right now than my retail friends, who already own their own condos, and I have almost $100k in loans at high interest rates. I cannot blame anyone for the fact that the job market is difficult (and not just in my major– except for my computer science friends, nobody in my graduating class has gotten a job that pays enough to cover monthly loan payments) but a little forgiveness would be helpful. Unlike credit card debt, student loans are not even forgiven if a person declares bankruptcy. I see a lot of comments on here that say “you made a sucky decision and that’s your fault, live with it,” and in some ways it’s true, and I have no choice, but I’m tired of people blaming me for the many misleading perceptions society puts out about working hard and getting a degree giving you guarantee of success.

What the government really needs to do immediately, in my opinion, is cap the interest rates on private loans and reduce the rates of people already paying. Some of my friends pay as high as 20% interest because it was a choice between taking that loan or dropping out.

After that, investigations need to be done into where all the money is going in these schools. Paying as much as we do in tuition, there should either be much higher quality education, a large number of substantial scholarships, or something. Most college students I know wonder just where all that money went, since it didn’t go into improving the school as far as we could tell.

I fervently disagree here. Education costs are high because it is up to the free market to set the price, and the market sets the price high. Education is one area where the free market breaks down because there is not an immediate return on investment. That is why the government has to step in. Maybe society shouldn’t be like that, but that is the system we have to work in. as I’ve said, I would much prefer a system where everyone more or less has the opportunity to be educated over one that is strictly merit and legacy based.

“I have not mentioned taxes or tax money, except for mentioning subsidies in this very post. You must have me confused with someone else.”

You are correct, I was confused. Sorry for that.

“I just don’t think that everyone and their brother have to go to college.”

You know, I kind of agree with you there. But then, I worked hard and made it through college, and got a good paying job. I am incredibly grateful for the grants I got, not to mention the government subsidized stafford loans. I literally could not have done it without them, and that was like 7 years ago. I shudder to think of what kids are facing today in terms of school debt. I think its safe to say that I am not an exception. There are millions who benefit from subsidized education, and most of them, like me, will pay back every dime and then some.

No, this isn’t true at all. Education costs are high because of government subsidy and mismanagement, along with this idea that has been sold that everyone should go to college.

And a lot of state schools aren’t that expensive. That subsidy already exists. There doesn’t need to be more subsidy added on top of it.

“You (and other people bitching about their tax money) are basically saying that if people need the government to help them pay for their education, then they shouldn’t be going in the first place.”

I have not mentioned taxes or tax money, except for mentioning subsidies in this very post. You must have me confused with someone else.

I haven’t even called this whole student loan plan stupid yet. Someone above actually brought up a good point that this program could actually cost less in the long run as fewer loans are defaulted upon. I am reserving judgement.

I just don’t think that everyone and their brother have to go to college.

As Joseph Sobran said, “In one century we went from teaching Latin and Greek in high school to offering remedial English in college.”

“You are making the worst case assumption that anybody who goes to college on a grant is going to be a slacker because they are paying for it with YOUR tax money, and they know it.”

Actually, I’ve never said anything of the sort. All I said was that, for a lot of people, college is a waste of time. They go to college, get the “college experience,” and then get a degree while actually not ever learning much beyond what they should have learned in high school. I have made no statement anywhere about how these people are funding their education.

I’m trying to say that too many people go to college or think they need to go to college, regardless of how they pay for it. I don’t blame them. The employment situation these days seems to greatly favor those who have completed a bachelor’s degree, regardless of the field. It’s just as big a problem that employers require a B.A. to hire a secretary.

“Maybe that’s not what you think you are saying, but that is what it sounds like.”

Only if you mix my posts in with about half-a-dozen others that have been posted here and then blend them all into one user.

Icup says mediocre intelligence, which if you think about it denotes the same group as “average intelligence.” In an information- and technology-dense society, yes, we need their hands on deck. We need “normal” people to have advanced high-school skills–practical nurses, data entry personnel who can spell, bookkeeping. We need “somewhat above average” (e.g. 550-550-550 GRE) people to master college and graduate-level material such physical therapy, accounting, public relations. Maybe there’s a better way to structure all this, but that would be one tidal wave of a reform.

I also believe in liberal arts education as a way to develop your mind to think in new paths. Unfortunately, this is a luxury few can afford unless they have the personality to do it autodidactically or the opportunity to combine it with the dominant vo-tech idea of American education.

I think you are missing my point. That’s the whole point of government subsidy of education. Without it, only those who could afford sky high tuition and those who are smart enough to get a full scholarship would be able to go to college. Hence the millionaries and geniuses. There is a whole range of people in between there who would go to college and do very well, but they just can’t afford it. Hence the government steps in and (rather lightly) subsidizes their education. You (and other people bitching about their tax money) are basically saying that if people need the government to help them pay for their education, then they shouldn’t be going in the first place.

You are making the worst case assumption that anybody who goes to college on a grant is going to be a slacker because they are paying for it with YOUR tax money, and they know it. Therefore they are purposefully going to party all the time and screw around just to rub it in your tax-paying face. Maybe that’s not what you think you are saying, but that is what it sounds like. You are not giving people the benefit of the doubt.