On the other hand, taking a business up on an offer they freely made to you is not stealing. And no amount of classist revulsion will change that. (Nor willing it make negotiating wrong)

It is not “readright.” (Or “listenright” or “viewright.”) That’s what it would have to be for a compulsory payment to the artist per use by a different user. We don’t have that, so library readers don’t pay per read. (In England, I believe, they do.) If we did—hey, why not charge a book owner for EACH read? If I read something three times, should I have to pay for each?

So it’s not stealing to read from the library—or from the bookstore. And notes aren’t copies.

Great idea – I just finished taking notes from the copy of “365 Ways to Live Cheap” from my local Chapter’s bookstore. I saved myself $8.00.

I would advise everyone else do the same.

Hmmm, maybe now that the money is coming out of YOUR pocket, you might have changed your stance on people stealing ideas in books that are for sale without paying for them.

Not at all.

So what is the big deal?

If he jotted down a few lines to help remember something later (which I have done) and then found that to be useful he would have a good chance of wanting to return to buy the entire book based on the helpfulness of the original information taken away. As someone who has worked in book stores I assure you that this is the book stores intent.

What book stores don’t like is when you man handle the books. Don’t dog ear them so someone else would not consider purchasing it or the store would have to sell it at a discount to get rid of it.

And further ….

Book stores (at least ours did) have return policies. So if he purchased the book, went home and copied the whole thing (he can since he owns it), then returned it (the policy did say for ANY reason – “I want my money back” is a reason!) would THAT be stealing?? Technically no – morally yes.

I think the issue all boils down to manors, socially acceptable modes of behavior and being a “good” consumer. “Do unto others” applies not only to your neighbor but also to the businesses you hope will stay around long enough to be a resource for your purchasing needs for a long, long time.

You can press the boundaries of any hospitality policy or privilege to the breaking point if you like but doing so would make you a bad consumer.

I commented on this subject after your 1/3/08 post. I don’t click on ads unless I really am interested in something. But I have purchased your book, Trent, as well as each of the e-books you have offered for sale on this site – because I do receive daily value and enjoyment from ‘The Simple Dollar’. But I’ve not yet found a Paypal link, or other avenue for appreciative readers to easily send in a “readership donation”. I think you might be surprised (pleasantly, I hope) at the number of readers who would like to pay for the value they receive from your site. Just a suggestion, and a BIG thank-you for ‘The Simple Dollar’.

No, I have not done most of those things… because I’m not an A**hole.

Listen, I believe a little bit of bad behavior is awesome and goes a long way but pretending to forget a tip or taking handicaped parking is low, shallow, and selfish. Alot of people don’t do those things. You do them. Don’t try to throw it on us using the old “come on, everybody does it.”

No, you do it and your being an A**hole

For the poster who recommended buying nothing in the group at the coffee shop- my take is this:
If I were going out in a group to a coffee shop and wasn’t a big coffee drinker, I believe it would help the general attitude in the group to be able to have the water rather than nothing. I don’t know about you, but if I noticed a friend at an outing that was obviously to get drinks and socialize sitting there with nothing, I would feel some pressure to offer them something or perhaps choose a different location in the future so that everyone can enjoy the time. (sort of a passive push to meet elsewhere to make sure everyone is included.) If I were the one who didn’t want coffee, then the water is a way to minimize the appearance of “not fitting in” in the situation/environment if I didn’t want people to feel like they had to offer to buy me something. This way, we could just enjoy the time and go on our way. I don’t want people making a big deal that I didn’t get anything. Also, if I enjoyed the atmosphere enough, I may recommend it to others or try something new myself in the future.
I think we all agree that this depends in large part on if this is a habitual ‘freebie’ or if I am contributing to the store’s profits in the long run. *shrugs*

As far as the book browsing goes, it’s all a matter of opinion and what types of ‘notes’ are being taken. If someone is taking time sensitive materials and copying only what they needed without intending to purchase the book, then there could be a problem with that. However, Trent was taking a very small snippet from one book to analyze and if it worked, he fully intended to go back and purchase the book. I see no problems with this behavior in part because Trent was also researching into something he promotes regularly– how many books does he review and promote on this blog– and how many additional sales come to the authors of the books from this ‘free advertising’ provided by Trent? Who is to say he wasn’t going to take that book and promote it on his site once his initial research was complete and he was able to delve more fully into the book?

As with many questions of ethics (or even just “good/poor taste”) it seems there are many variables here and everyone will need to decide what lines they will cross and what is unacceptable. Also, if the owners of these stores do not approve of these actions, they have the full right to confront the customer and (politely or otherwise) ask them to refrain from it or leave the establishment.

Interesting thing to think about and decide which way I would go… Thank you Trent for opening up this conversation!

If I am making a note of one passage from something in a bookstore, I will make sure that the book remains in pristine condition. If I damage it in any way, I have bought it. My local bookstore encouraged people to hang out, even if they didn’t buy, because the store looked busy and therefore inviting. They made MORE sales when people were hanging out reading and making notes in the seats or the floor. The same for the next-door shop. If I sat and had water, I made sure to be aware if people needed tables. If noone waited, I’d stay as long as I liked. If the tables got crowded, I’d leave and let the paying customers have the table. Nobody ever thought of that as theft.

I’ve been a bookseller for a decade, and I’ve encountered the flimsy justification you’ve written in this post many a time, usually when I’m telling people to put down the travel guide that they’re copying from.

Having people walk out of my store with knowledge in their heads is perfectly fine with me. Having knowledge in their _pants_, however — whether that means a stolen book, or a notebook crammed with recipes that they’ve surreptitiously copied down — is not fine with me. Either way, you’re deciding that the information I sell is something I can afford to give away.

Bookstores provide seating to aid browsing, and to control where people are sitting, because people are going to sit down whether or not there are chairs. Browsing and making notes are not the same thing. Browsing is reading the first few chapters of a book, or comparing field guides.

And the people who copy things down might tell me that they support the store (as you have just said, above)… but the truth is that the people who copy stuff down aren’t people who also buy books. It’s nice that you, Trent, have a warm feeling about stores that let you copy stuff down, and that you feel connected to them, but as your posts about getting books for free or cheap show, you’re not actually helping the stores where you copy stuff stay in business.

I write this without rancor — despite my profession, I don’t buy books either. Ironically, I agree that the cost of a book doesn’t generally reflect its usefulness or entertainment value. But I also feel that bookstores don’t deserve to be mooched off of. If you’re going to copy down something, copy down the _title_ of the book full of recipes or information that you need… and then get it from the library.

And if the library doesn’t have it, and your seven ways of getting books free don’t work, suck it up and buy the book. Sometimes that’s the way it goes.

Same discussion could be had about “sneaking” food into a movie theater. They make a ton more money on the sale of snacks but is it stealing to bring your own? or just to not eat during the film?

Ask the owner of the bookstore if his intent is to allow people to copy the sections of a book. No.

Ask the owner of the cafe if his intent is to have non-paying people sitting in his cafe, drinking his water out of his cups. No.

Taking something that is not intended to be given in the way you are taking is, simply, stealing.

The fact that it’s easy to do doesn’t make it correct or ethical.

And your circuitous rationalizations are laughable. People like you make me vomit.

I generally love every word you write, but I think repeatedly taking free things from stores takes it too far. It could possibly discourage businesses from continuing to do these kind things in the future. A few bad seeds, and we know what happens.

The biggest issue for me, however, is that some actions go too far, and they give frugality a bad name. That makes frugality less socially acceptable, and isn’t part of our common goal to make frugality acceptable?

And I read at bookstores all the time. The bookstores blatantly encourage this behavior with comfy chairs and in house coffee shops. My favorite bookstore (Powell’s in Portland, OR) allows you to sit in their coffee shop and read their books for as long as you like. And you know what? They were rewarded with my customer loyalty. I’ve spent hundreds of dollars there over the years, but I’ve also read many books for free as well!

Situational ethics is a topic about which much has been written, and we face decisions about our behavior every day. Hope you take the time to think again.

Sometimes I am wondering about how much resource/time/money are spent on getting advances on exchange, that is, you need to earn from what you do. The rules are set as social normal, but does it have to be in place? Are we supposed to be living together to make our lives better by all kinds of interaction? Money is used everywhere to measure your success to a huge extent, but do we have to do everything that is measured/exchanged based on money. Everyone wants to take your money–whatever you have, –as one extremity.

However, if all your friends want to go get coffee and you are with them (and you hate coffee)…I think it’s fine if you just order water. You are just going where your friends are going.

Hopefully, you aren’t a “regular” that never buys a thing.