The Value of Personal Trust 177comments
A really good discussion about personal trust and honesty developed out of the most recent reader mailbag that I thought was worth discussing on its own. First of all, I made a pretty big mistake in my answer. I made a giant assumption that the readers called me on, and it’s worth discussing further.
On a very regular basis, I give cash gifts to people I trust who need them or could, at the very least, use them. I take this out of money that I have and just give it to people that could use it. I’ll give some cash to a relative to help that person cover their power bill. This is something that’s common and normal to me.
When I do this, I am pretty picky about who I give the cash to, but if they’re someone I trust personally, I don’t hesitate to do it. If I found out my grandmother was having difficulty keeping her house, I’d be right there with a check in hand to help her. If one of my cousins that I trust was trying to start a business and needed some seed money, a check would be in the mail in a heartbeat. I almost always do this without asking, and I don’t expect a dime back from them.
Why do I do this? I don’t need any sort of written agreement to know that if I needed something, these people I trust would be there for me. When those people are in a pinch, I will help them, no questions asked. When those people are trying to reach for a dream, I will try to boost them if I can.
To me, personal trust and personal relationships like these are more valuable than money. I can’t possibly put a cash value on knowing that if I lost my home, my family, my children, my job - everything - there are people who would take me in and care for me. I was able to make the leap to being a full time writer because of the support and trust and help given to me by family and friends. I rely on this - it’s an integral part of who I am.
Here’s another way to think about it, through the eyes of charities. I tend to not donate to charities unless I know them well. I need to either be intimately involved myself or have someone I deeply trust be involved before I’ll donate. When I do build that trust, though, I’ll write checks to those charities without even thinking. I’ll evangelize for those charities. I’ll do what I can to help them, because I trust them. I don’t worry any more about whether my check is really helping - I trust the charity, so I don’t worry about it. I don’t worry about what I’ll get out of it - I just trust that they’re doing the right thing for something I care about.
Quite often, I assume the same kinds of dynamics in other families and friendships - and I did so to my own detriment earlier. My response to a reader question about what to do with extra cash was to give it away to a trusted family member or a trusted friend, which is exactly what I would do. I’d look for someone I trusted and use that money to seed something they wanted to do, and I’d be very liberal about it.
My response, which basically just assumed much of this, said to give the cash to a trusted family member and then that family member would probably help with college. I also suggested that giving this money away - because it would provide the added kicker of helping with one’s financial aid case, might be unethical to some, but I considered it completely fair because it’s within the rules - nowhere does it outlaw giving away your money. I did not advocate sheltering money - that’s against the rules entirely.
This was met with instant derision that I was advocating truly cheating the system, and looking back on it, I can see where the outrage came from. The outrage comes from the sense that you should never trust anyone when it comes to money, and that’s a sensible and safe philosophy to live by. The only drawback is that you limit yourself in how much you can trust others, and that cuts you off from some things. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? It’s a personal call each person has to make.
A reader asked me:
Let’s turn the tables. If you randomly received a check for $10,000 in the mail from a relative with no note, what would you do with it? What do you think they would want you do to with it?
I’d probably call them up and ask them why they sent it. If they said, “It’s help for you getting started with your writing career” or something like that, I’d give a big “thank you” and put it in the bank. I can think of a lot of other reasons why I’d just happily accept the gift, and they’re mostly borne out of trust and long-term trusting relationships with people.
Honestly, I wouldn’t really question the gift very much, and this in itself is a demonstration of what I’m talking about.
Furthermore, I’m planning already to give my nieces and nephews some gifted financial help when they go to college. I have no obligation to do so. But their parents have helped me a lot during my young adult life.
Should that be reported on the FAFSA? I think it’s ridiculous to think so. There was no implication whatsoever that any help my brother or sister-in-law gave me, in the form of gifts or personal help or advice, was to be repaid in the form of some assistance to their children. If they had a windfall and mailed me a check right now without a note, I’d still not think of it as any sort of implication that I should assist their children with college.
This all translates directly to my advice to the earlier family. In essence, giving that money to Uncle Phil is just another kind of investment. It’s an investment in people, in trust, in a bond that can’t be quoted in dollars. If you give that money to Phil when he has a good use for it, you’ve probably cemented a bond with someone who will help you in countless ways throughout your life, in ways you see now and ways you don’t, in ways you can measure in dollars and cents and ways you can’t.
From my perspective, trust is about helping people you care for because you can and because you want to, not because you’re obligated to.
If this kind of trust seems alien to you, then you’re not alone. There are a lot of people out there who are guarded, and it’s usually because they’ve been bitten after trusting someone, or they’ve heard too many stories about trust falling apart. They call such trust “naive” or “foolish” - and maybe it is.
But when I go back to my hometown and spend an evening around people I trust that deeply, I realize I wouldn’t trade that sense of trust for anything in the world. It’s that valuable, if you can find it.
So what did I learn? First, I learned that assuming things about the relationships between others can usually get you into hot water. I assumed far too much about the trust in relationships in this family, and because of that, I gave advice that was probably not the best advice to give. I gave advice from my own heart, based on what I would do in that situation - if I had money that I was trying to get rid of in order to get in a better state for financial aid, the first place I’d look is my family, the people that I trust. In a family without that trust, my advice was horribly bad - it either implies an illegal financial agreement or it suggests just tossing your money into the breeze and watching it fly away. Trust makes all the difference, and I assumed too much of it.
Second, I learned that when you give money to others, the worst-case scenario is usually assumed by others. If I give some money to my uncle or my cousin, it’s reasonable to think that others are assuming I’m doing it for personal gain over the long haul, that I must be expecting to be paid back in some fashion. That’s not how I view the world, and viewing it that way takes a big stretch for me.
I’ve explained how I view trust, and how that view can skew things. How do you view trust? How deep does it go? How much value does it have for you? Have you ever been hurt by trusting too much? Have you ever been helped by relying on a trusting relationship?
“we see money as just another tool to enhance our relationships”
In one sentence, you nailed a big part of what I was trying to say. Kudos.
There is no way in heck that I would give a significant amount of money to a relative wanting to start a business unless we first discussed and came to an agreement on what would happen if the business was successful and they were in a position to pay me back. I don’t think that’s about a lack of trust. (If I trusted the person enough, I might, for example, leave it as an informal agreement, rather than a legally binding contract.) It’s just an acknowledgement that misunderstandings about money have the power to cause tremendous resentment that can seriously harm once-strong relationships.
If I give my brother $10K to start a business, and the business goes on to become the next Microsoft and make billions, I’m going to want my $10K back, with interest, at the very least. I don’t see any reason not to discuss this possibility beforehand. To leave such expectations unspoken just seems foolish to me.
Johanna: you nailed the difference I was talking about. If I gave someone I truly trusted and valued $10K as seed money, I wouldn’t worry in the least about what they did with it. And that’s a big divide that speaks to the different reactions to the answer I gave earlier - it’s simply two different worldviews, and they’re tied up in the word “trust.”
I agree, with one caveat: there are very few people in my life whom I can trust like that. Basically it’s a few family members, and 4 close friends. So yes, of course trusting relationships exist, but in my experience, they are relatively rare.
A story: Two months ago, my roommate and I signed a loan agreement together. He’d ended up in severe financial straits and was in danger of having to move out of our place and back in with his emotionally abusive parents, which would’ve affected my ability to pay rent on the apartment we currently share. I agreed to use my emergency fund to carry both of us on the rent and utilities for a maximum of three months, until he could find a job, at which point he would pay me back without interest.
I took quite a bit of flak from some people about this decision, because they claimed that I should’ve given him the money outright without expecting repayment. He was in trouble, the situation wasn’t his fault, wasn’t I his friend? But they didn’t realise that my roommate’s parents have constantly used money in an attempt to buy his affection and loyalty, right from childhood, and continue to do so to this day. Money was and is a substitute for love and respect in his family — he’s told me so in no uncertain terms. So by keeping our loan agreement on a purely business footing, with expectations of repayment but no interest charged, he doesn’t have to feel like I’m just throwing money at him as his parents did (with the implication that once again, he’s being ‘paid off’ by someone else).
A few weeks ago, my roommate found a job that he seems to enjoy and that pays more than mine does. He’s far happier and better off now than he was a few months ago, and he’s written me a cheque for a significant portion of the loan that’ll be cashed when his first paycheque comes through in a week’s time. In this case, a loan was a better decision than an outright gift, for both of us.
The moral? As I see it, the psychological value of money vs trust always depends on the situation.
Part of the confusion was that the reader who sent in the question seemed to be asking how she could both hang onto the money and maximize her financial aid. Yes, she literally asked what she should do with the money, but the intent was to ask for the best way to shelter that money for her children’s college costs. So, when you mentioned Uncle Phil, commenters assumed that you were using him as an unusual and possibly illegal shelter.
I grew up thousands of miles away from all my extended family. I have no reason to trust any of them more than I would trust anyone I sort of know. There’s no reason that someone who happens to share 1/8 or 1/4 of my genetic material (my cousins or uncles) is intrinsically more deserving of my charity than a complete stranger. They aren’t deserving of less charity, either, but while I’d volunteer my time and knowledge to help complete strangers, I wouldn’t volunteer my money.
Trent, I was one of the first commenters on the other post and I have to say I am very disappointed in how the discussion has gone throughout the day.
First of all, your rewrite of your original answer to the financial aid question was vastly different than the original post. I think you should have left up what you wrote at first for the sake of comparison for later readers to see what all the fuss was about. If I remember correctly, the first answer you wrote said that you were giving the money to Uncle Phil, trusting that when the kids got to college he would kick in an equal amount of money each year to the kids once they were in college.
I think this while “trust” tangent you went on was birthed out of people reading your answer for what it was the first time. You are giving Uncle Phil the money with the solid expectation that he would equally give back the money to the kids once the government could no longer count it against the kids financial aid.
I also think you misunderstand the purpose of financial aid. I think of it like gifts are in any other sense. If someone gives you a gift over a certain amount you pay taxes on it (I do believe). Why should financial aid be any different? Why should people with more money for college not be expected to use what they have? Going to college is not a right. The merit-based part of college comes through admissions. If you can get in, you’ve shown you earned it. It’s up to you, then, to pay for it. The government has been “kind” enough to offer loans and grants to help those who earned admissions to college afford that.
Financial aid is not an indicator of how much a child deserves to go to college, which is how it seems you are interpreting it. It is an indicator of how much financial contribution that student and his/her family can make. That is fine.
In my eyes, you come out of this discussion very dishonest because of how you changed your post after people got upset about it (including me) and then twisted the discussion into saying that it was you giving the money (hypothetically) out of the goodness of your heart.
I see what you mean about the issue of trust in a general sense. I’m not financially capable of gifting money to people like that, and I don’t have many people I trust that completely, but I would love to be able to do that sort of thing. It’s a great feeling to know that you truly helped someone, whether it’s a friend, family member, or charity.
The part of this discussion that I don’t understand, however, is why the college money would be given away in the case that started this discussion. What is the point of giving away money to maximize financial aid? If you have the money to pay for it, why would you give it away in order to take on loans? Giving the money to the uncle doesn’t seem to serve any particular purpose; the reader’s question didn’t give any indication that someone in her family needed the money more than her children. The uncle will have a bunch of money he doesn’t need, the kids will have loans (as part of or all of their financial aid package), the parents risk being suspected of fraud, and the grandparents won’t have their wishes respected. Everyone ends up in a worse situation than they would have been if the money had just been used to pay for college. The advice you gave just doesn’t make sense for that person’s situation.
“Part of the confusion was that the reader who sent in the question seemed to be asking how she could both hang onto the money and maximize her financial aid. Yes, she literally asked what she should do with the money, but the intent was to ask for the best way to shelter that money for her children’s college costs. So, when you mentioned Uncle Phil, commenters assumed that you were using him as an unusual and possibly illegal shelter.”
I understand this now, but it didn’t occur to me when I was writing my original answer. I wrote what I would do, trying to put myself in their shoes and, as I said above, it made for some bad advice. As I said above, “In a family without that trust, my advice was horribly bad - it either implies an illegal financial agreement or it suggests just tossing your money into the breeze and watching it fly away. Trust makes all the difference, and I assumed too much of it.”
This is exactly why Trent has the best personal finance blog. Make a mistake, own up to it. It also speaks to the loyalty of your readers. They call you out on the mistake and continue to read the blog.
SG, that was a great story.
“But they didn’t realise that my roommate’s parents have constantly used money in an attempt to buy his affection and loyalty, right from childhood, and continue to do so to this day.”
That was powerful, and sums up a few people close to me.
Trent, I may have just read the responses differently but at least I know for me my reaction to your suggestion about the money was not at all about the trust issue. I can absolutely understand having people I trust implicitly - with money and otherwise. I still don’t think that trusting Uncle Phil means that what you were suggesting was ethical by MY standards. Not only that but I don’t think the person you gave this advice to would be teaching their children any good financial lessons with this approach either.
And again please explain how this is NOT sheltering the money just because there is not a signed agreement? As you are so specifically arguing, you are giving this money to a person you trust will “do the right thing” and give it back. And you mention that even without a signed agreement there would be an expectation because you say that Uncle Phil would be the recipient of “family scorn.”
Also while trust is a great thing for kids to learn I also believe that financial responsibility is just as important. This seems like you are teaching the kids to depend on others to take care of them. While I think it’s good to trust others, I know I don’t want to raise my kids to believe that others will be the ones that will handle the finances so my kids don’t need to learn financial responsibility.
So my problem is not at all about trust but is about what ethics I personally believe in AND what life lessons I want my kids to learn. Relying on others is different to me than trusting others. It’s good to have family and friends to trust. It’s not as good to just expect others to take care of you.
Anyway, for me this was the first piece of advice that I personally did not like at all - ethically and financially. Plus I don’t think you are understanding most of the issue that the readers have. However I can understand that we have different levels of ethics. I’ll just make sure to pay attention a bit more to advice you write given this difference.
When I read their question, I read that it was “not a fortune,” meaning not much at all and likely less than $10K; that it was a gift from relatives, which implied a close family (I thought of my own); and that they couldn’t pay for college, which meant that they were likely relatively poor.
This sounds a lot like my boat when I was starting to look at college, so I pretty quickly snapped myself into their place. I got through college because of family support, above all else - not just financial, but emotional and mental and all sorts of things. So my advice - well-intentioned but perhaps wrong - was to shore up that family support by gifting it away within the family.
That’s why I wrote this article - the nexus of that choice is about the value of personal trust. If you trust those people to be there for you, then the best investment you could make with that money is in them. If you truly believe you’re all tied together via trusting relationships, then money’s just a way to cement those relationships and help everyone to float. That’s the way I see the world, anyway.
Not only that, by gifting the money, they appear much better on the financial aid forms, which was the one thing that was mentioned as criteria. You appear as having fewer assets, but instead your assets are in the form of intangibles - strong, trusting relationships that will help you get through things.
Sure, there are a lot of options for this family, but I threw out one that I felt in my gut and in my heart, and that’s why. Invest in the people you truly trust and you’ll never regret it.
“As I said above, “In a family without that trust, my advice was horribly bad - it either implies an illegal financial agreement or it suggests just tossing your money into the breeze and watching it fly away. Trust makes all the difference, and I assumed too much of it.””
Maybe I’m just thick headed, or missing the obvious…but how does this change at all the advice that was given? You are still giving money away with the trust that when financial crunch time comes for your kids college that the “favor” will be repaid.
“This is exactly why Trent has the best personal finance blog. Make a mistake, own up to it. It also speaks to the loyalty of your readers. They call you out on the mistake and continue to read the blog.”
I think changing the content of the post is a little shady myself. It doesn’t let future readers see the original content. Retractions a different beast than on the fly modifications.
A self-employed person I know was asked to consider buying disability insurance. His response was that his disability insurance policy was made up of all the favors he’s ever done for his friends and all the checks he has written to his church. It seemed like a solid response when you first think about it, but he has three young children, so he bought the insurance. The point being, one might trust in others to “give back”, but should a person expect that trust relationship to protect one’s WHOLE FAMILY? Those are some high stakes.
Trent,
Sorry I love your blog but I am not buying this one. I think you got caught giving an unethical answer and rather than owning it you trying to make us believe in this whole trust thing. It just doesn’t fly. Let’s move on and back to what you are good at - motivating all of us to do better with our personal finances. Let’s just acknowledge that that was some bad advice.
I can’t imagine you didn’t know what the question meant when you answered it, and it was completely implied in your original post that you knew exactly what you were talking about and that it was basically a backdoor way to shelter the money, or at least to shelter an amount that could be used for college outside the eyes of FAFSA, if you picked a “trusted relative”. The fact that this whole thing has now morphed into this bizarre dialogue about personal and family trust and doing the right thing and families helping family members through college because that is what you do is a tad bit ridiculous - it has so little to do with the original question that I’m kind of boggled that it’s gone on this long. Bottom line for me, if you’re NOT trying to shelter money from FAFSA in this scenario, you’re incredibly naive, because odds are you’ll never get back from Uncle Phil what you gave him, or the equivalent of what you could have earned in a savings ccount and if you ARE trying to shelter the money so you can get a handout from the government, because you don’t want to spend your money on a college education that you feel you somehow deserve, then that’s plain WRONG.
As an aside, I really wish you wouldn’t completely erase content on this blog when you realize that something you said was completely backward - it’s like that post about trimming the fat where it originally advocating dumping family pets to new homes to gain a little more wiggle room in the budget each month that then just….magically disappeared in the original post. I agree with Jon - retractions are completely different than just deleting or altering the text that caused such a response.
“If I gave someone I truly trusted and valued $10K as seed money, I wouldn’t worry in the least about what they did with it.”
Well, $10K is a lot of money. It’s a significant fraction of my net worth at this point, and I doubt that your net worth is that much higher than mine. Giving a $10K no-strings-attached gift (for any reason) wouldn’t bankrupt me, but it would set me way back in my progress toward my own financial goals - so I think it’s safe to say that a $10K gift is not something I can reasonably afford. And giving gifts that you can’t reasonably afford, as a way of “enhancing your relationships,” does not strike me as healthy financial behavior.
If I had a close relative fall on such hard times that they would be without food or shelter unless I gave them some money, then I would help them out. But (1) I would help them out with much less than $10K, and (2) it would be accompanied by a frank talk about money management in which I do whatever I can to see that they don’t need my help again in the future. I have a close friend whose mother and sister treat him like an ATM, and he resents it very much but doesn’t do anything about it. I would not want that to happen to me.
But seed money for a business is different. For one, nobody needs to start a business. For another, businesses succeed and make money. (And if I did not think that my relative’s business would probably succeed and make money, there is no way that I would give him seed money, period.) So if I help my relative out with seed money, there’s a decent chance that he’ll later be in a good position to return the favor. I think it just makes sense to discuss beforehand, not after the fact, what an appropriate “thank you” might be if my seed money allowed my relative to become the next Bill Gates. And I don’t see what the value is in *not* having that discussion.
Trent, I’ve helped family members in the past as well, but never with the assumption they would (or could) help me later. In my case, my extended family is horribly bad with money, so I could never count on reciprocating assistance down the road. I give with zero strings attached, and I consider the expectation of future help a very small string.
I would only trust two or three people with a plan similar to the one you spelled out, but I suspect that is probably the average number most would entrust with such a large sum of money. Unfortunately, without trust and a deep, respectful relationship, most people will act on their own whims and fritter away the money. Having said all that, I completely agree with your line in the comments, “Invest in the people you truly trust and you’ll never regret it.” Well said.
Jon: “I think changing the content of the post is a little shady myself. It doesn’t let future readers see the original content. Retractions a different beast than on the fly modifications.”
Uhm… the original statement is still there. I even identify it as such. I had merely added two paragraphs to clarify it. The only problem I can see in the original statement is people believing the term “gift” is some code word for an under-the-table agreement, and so I clarified to make it clear that I am talking about an actual GIFT, not an agreement.
But, Trent in the comments you talk about “playing within the rules” and how the financial aid rules allow you to do what you’re proposing…..if this is just a personal trust and family issue and a gift and everything…why would we CARE what the FAFSA folks thought of your gift? why would we be thinking about teaching your kids to use the system to find competitive advantages for themselves within that system? Why is any of the advice in those comments relevant if this is just about doing something nice for a family member?
I feel like this entire argument/post/advice about fincial aid was just really poorly thought out.
OK, Trent, so you’ve clarified your post to say that you’d expect intangible rewards for the children from this gift of money. Everybody, that means there’s no fraud, because the FAFSA can’t measure or value your intangible assets.
I’d still have large issues with expecting intangible rewards, like goodwill and emotional support, for a gift of money. Emotions are fickle and irrational, especially when it comes to human relationships, and putting a price tag on them is really difficult. You can’t tell your uncle, “I’d like 3k worth of emotional support and 2k of unconditional love.” I’d rather repay goods with money and caring with caring.
(Not that this dichotomy is always clean. But I prefer to keep it as clean as possible.)
“Uhm… the original statement is still there. I even identify it as such”
Uhm, now it is. For a while all it said is that the original response had been changed due to a misunderstanding by the users.
“But, Trent in the comments you talk about “playing within the rules” and how the financial aid rules allow you to do what you’re proposing…..if this is just a personal trust and family issue and a gift and everything … why would we CARE what the FAFSA folks thought of your gift?”
Because the FAFSA only looks at the numbers, nothing else. If you’re looking at a gift versus a loan, both appear to the FAFSA as being a reduction in assets and will possibly draw questions. I’m advocating doing everything ethically and honestly - if you do things right, you’re not hiding or lying about anything.
I think we all know that the answer to the college question was never about “trust”. It was about fraud. This “Value of Personal Trust” piece seems to me like a complete rationalization of an answer you know, and we know, where 100% wrong. This has nothing to do with trust; it’s about fraud.
“Uhm, now it is. For a while all it said is that the original response had been changed due to a misunderstanding by the users.”
At first, I just rewrote it because my original understanding of all of this was that people weren’t understanding the word “gift.” I put it back as soon as I realized it was more than just a clarification issue for some people.
I try very hard to run this blog ethically and honestly. This discussion, I thought, was evidence of that. Why do you then feel the need to insinuate that I’m trying to be dishonest?
Ok, Trent, I’m trying to hang with you here because I have been a reader for a long time and you have responded to my emails and questions, but this whole debacle is frustrating me.
Here is what I’d like to know:
Why shouldn’t the children, or any people with money sitting around, be expected to use that money for college if that’s the path they choose to take?
You seem to be arguing that it’s unfair to expect them to use that money and instead they should be given grants as though they didn’t have it. I don’t understand your reasoning there.
You are proposing that the best way to use this money for your child’s education is to give it away to someone else to use for totally unrelated purposes. I am finding it hard to wrap my brain around how you could write that and it not even occur to you that that might be a controversial/misunderstandable position.
I like how Trent starts by saying, “I was wrong to post that,” but by the end it’s, “I was wrong to think your families are as generous as mine.”
I don’t think any mistake was owned up to. I think we were just told we misunderstood you, because your trusted family/friends has such a vastly different attitude towards money then the rest of us. And I’m also not quite buying it.
In order to get the most out of it, they should just save it like a normal person, and use it all up the first year or so. Then they will “appear better” on forms the rest of the years. I think that is advice that would sit more soundly.
If i want to have the most money for college, giving any money I do get away seems quite counterproductive, unless there are hidden expectations.
This has gotten completely out of control.
Let’s summarize:
1) If Trent GIFTS the money to Uncle Jim, it is, legally, no longer his. There is no agreement, no contract, no nothing. He is TRUSTING that Jim will GIFT the money back when Trent’s kid goes to college. If Uncle Jim spends it, tough luck. That is why he emphasized TRUST.
2) This is not illegal. The money legally now belongs to Uncle Jim. Jim can do what he pleases. If he wants to GIFT it back to Trent’s Kid, then he can.
3) This is not fraud. You’re a fool to think so. Trent gave his money away, and Uncle Jim, out of the kindness of his heart, in 18 years gives it to Trent’s kid.
4) The money will be gifted back to Trent’s kid from Uncle Jim when he goes off to college. Only if Uncle Jim wants to.
5) None of these transactions need to be reported on FAFSA (it’s not your money afterall).
6) Trust is key. The money absolutely has to stay out of Trent or his Kids name.
7) There are millions of people who apply for financial aid every term and that number is growing. There is only a limited amount of money. Even the very rich may not provide money for their children to go to school. Those “rich” kids deserve that aid as much as any “poor” kid. This and the last post are just one way to get some additional money. It is a very risky way to get additional money.
Like it or not, this is a smart, LEGAL way to get some additional funds for college.
I think I understand where Trent was coming from with this advice, but to me the meaning of “trust” and the meaning of “expectation” are being confused with each other.
If I am willing and able to gift my sister with $10,000 of my savings, no strings attached, I fully trust her to do what is best and responsible with that money. I also trust that when my kids(s) are college-aged, my sister will do whatever she is able to help them.
However suppose in the next 15 years my sister loses her job and needs that $10,000 no-strings money to live on? And in 15 years she isn’t able to help pay for my kids’ college? Did I expect that she’d have preserved that $10,000 no-strings money, not matter what, to pay for my kids’ college?
If she hasn’t preserved that money, it has nothing to do with her being untrustworthy. It has to do with the expectations I established for my $10,000 gift to her.
And ultimately, haven’t I as a parent failed my child by essentially losing $10,000 of her college fund in order to try to “work the system”?
At this point, I’m just going to let the comments go, rather than responding to anything else.
It’s very clear that my second post here was spot-on. Personal trust plays a massive role in how you interpret personal finance issues, both for me and for you. These comments are witness to that fact.
I’ll just quote one thing from my article above: “my advice was horribly bad.” I admitted to giving bad advice - if that’s not enough for you, I’m not sure what is.
Also, tom’s comment above explained the entire thing perfectly. The entire thing is predicated on trust.
Mixing money and friendships/relationships is one of the most dangerous things to do. This runs the gambit from parents to siblings to friends to significant others. I have been a landlord for friends for the past couple years and it is one of the most stressful things to have to deal with. At least with that kind of situation there is an obvious expectation: you will pay your rent. With lending money it becomes a lot more kloogy on expectations unless you are VERY specific (which I agree with) and even then it might be hard.
With parents/siblings loaning money is difficult because there are allegiance expectations taken to another level above friendship.
With spouses, well, the number one thing fought about in marriages in America is money. Enough said.
Just in general money and relationships is a difficult thing.
That is frustrating Trent. If your article was spot on, then while their may be a few of us whiners, there would not be such an overwhelming negative reaction. Sure, I understand not responding to everything but maybe let the comments flow and come back with your thoughts. Unless you get a wave of positive comments (you may, who knows)… either we are all misguided, or you are.
Your ideas of personal trust might be spot on, but the idea that personal trust related to your ealier advice certainly is not.
wow, i didn’t realize that you had so many self-righteous readers! can i have a soap box, or are they all being used right now? good luck putting out this fire.
“wow, i didn’t realize that you had so many self-righteous readers! can i have a soap box, or are they all being used right now? good luck putting out this fire.”
I completely agree.
I don’t think people are necessarily being self righteous…its just a very touchy subject. 99% of people are just trying to do the right thing but also not damage friendships/relationships.
“I try very hard to run this blog ethically and honestly. This discussion, I thought, was evidence of that. Why do you then feel the need to insinuate that I’m trying to be dishonest?”
Because that’s how it looked to me. It’s very hard to comment on an article when the content keeps changing. From my view, a published article (regardless of medium) should NEVER be altered for any reason. It can be clarified clearly at beginning or end but should never be altered in the middle.
StackingPennies: All I’m going to say is re-read tom’s comment, #31. He explains really well why this is really about trust.
What about all the students who really need the financial aid? Who don’t have their relatives “gifting” them money on top of their assistance?
I don’t understand how this isn’t scamming the system. Sure, the system has its loopholes, but explain your scheme to the kids who DON’T get financial aid but who really need it and see how they feel about it.
“Because that’s how it looked to me. It’s very hard to comment on an article when the content keeps changing. From my view, a published article (regardless of medium) should NEVER be altered for any reason. It can be clarified clearly at beginning or end but should never be altered in the middle.”
See, that’s a point of contention among personal finance bloggers. J.D. over at Get Rich Slowly edits his articles if need be after posting them if the commenters point something out. I generally agree with you about leaving articles untouched, but J.D. made a very excellent case for his position. This can be debated all day long - trust me, it has been.
The point is that no blog or blogger can be 100% right, and no blog or blogger can please everyone with a response. I’m going to be wrong sometimes - that’s life. I cannot punch out this much writing and nail everything 100% - that’s not the point of a blog. The question is how I handle it. I usually try to start some discussion with a mistake, because if I messed up, there’s probably something that can be learned from it.
“Like it or not, this is a smart, LEGAL way to get some additional funds for college.”
Most comments do not dispute the legality of the decision. Apparently there is a breakdown here between the understanding of what is legal and what is ethical. Ethics live outside the realm of the law.
Trent is right, he has had to beat that dead horse a few too many times: its been a debate even between PF bloggers in private forums (too)many times.
“explain your scheme to the kids who DON’T get financial aid but who really need it and see how they feel about it.”
This is *still* assuming I’m advocating a scam. I’m not. Again, read tom’s comment - #31.
No its not confusion or lack of trust that make people believe that your idea is unethical and illegal.
Your scheme was to gift money to a relative with the expectation that they would in turn gift it back later. Thats sheltering money with the intention to hide it from the federal government. Thats the unethical and illegal part.
Its clear your suggestion is built on the idea that the uncle would return the money in kind for college expenses. This is a tit for tat arrangement. If you are not really expecting him to return the money then why did you discuss the ‘risk’ of him not doing so and what would be the point of giving away your money in order to plan for college expenses?!?
People are not saying they think your scheme is unethical cause they don’t trust people. Theya re saying its unethical because it is unethical. Trust of relatives would be required for your scheme to work at all. If people didn’t trust their relatives and looked at your scheme they would simply say it would fail cause your relative would take the money and laugh, not due to it being unethical.
Jim
“The question is how I handle it. I usually try to start some discussion with a mistake, because if I messed up, there’s probably something that can be learned from it.”
But that is just what is still be argued here. You turned the discussion off of ethics and onto trust. Yes, you admitted your advice was wrong, but only under certain conditions.
Are we trusting the uncle to hold the money, or just to do something responsible? Are you expecting/hoping to get the money back, or “trusting” you’ll get the money back, or neither? If neither, how does this help the said student/child. I you are hoping for it back, I don’t know if it is illegal, but it does seem like it is at least sketchy.
I read Tom’s comment and it seems we are hoping to get the same money back as a gift. Hoping, but obivously with no legal requirement. Is this what you meant, or am I wrong?
I’m honestly a little confused.
Trent, you should write less if volume’s the reason you make mistakes like this.
“Your scheme was to gift money to a relative with the expectation that they would in turn gift it back later.”
No, it’s not. There is zero assumption of getting anything paid back. You’re adding that assumption yourself, in your own mind, and then believing that what I’m saying is unethical. Read tom’s comment again. #31. The relative has 100% freedom to do whatever he or she wants.
“You turned the discussion off of ethics and onto trust. Yes, you admitted your advice was wrong, but only under certain conditions.”
They’re the same thing. Trust is ethics. This entire discussion is about trust - some people trust others, others don’t.
“Are we trusting the uncle to hold the money, or just to do something responsible?”
I’m trusting the uncle to do something responsible - that’s the entire point of this article and of talking about trust instead of arranging a deal. Returning the money later is one of an infinite number of potential responsible acts. Trust is the key part here - do I trust the uncle’s judgment?
“Trent, you should write less if volume’s the reason you make mistakes like this.”
I could write one post a week and still make mistakes. With thirteen posts a week, there are just thirteen times as many opportunities for a mistake to appear.
Besides, as a whole I don’t feel this was a mistake. I think this was a good opportunity to illustrate the importance of trust.
Well, please let me know the next time you say the wrong thing to teach us a lesson.
I don’t think what Trent suggested is unethical or a scam. I just think its bad advice, like he said. To me, it purports that trust can trump reality.
If Uncle Jim loses his job or has a medical emergency, your monetary gift to him (ie your kid’s college savings) may well be out the window, because of necessity and not because of any trust issues.
Bottom line- In my opinion, what he proposed isn’t a way to save or prepare financially for college expenses.
“Well, please let me know the next time you say the wrong thing to teach us a lesson.”
I’m guessing the phrase “turn lemons into lemonade” is a new one to you?
Man, what a frustrating couple of threads!
I like your blog, Trent. I like seeing new stuff from you pop up in my reader. I’m going to stick around and see where things go from here.
But, golly, did you ever dig yourself a hole, here. A lot of your readers, including myself, think your answer about maximizing financial aid eligibility was wrong–*but not because of the part about trusting Uncle Phil.*
My own feeling is that it doesn’t pass the “dinner table” test. Personally, I wouldn’t want to explain this to my kid over dinner. I would rather explain that our hard work and good fortune have given us X amount of dollars, and we’ll be happy to put that on the FAFSA. The reason we’ll do so is that it’s a true statement about our real resources, and that people unfortunate enough to lack those resources won’t be able to play games. It’s a step toward leveling the playing field.
Perhaps my perspective is warped, though. I’ve worked for years with low-income, first-generation students. A 17-year-old in a bad school*, raised by an underemployed single parent, deserves the same FA opportunities as any hotshot from your stellar district.
*They exist in Iowa, too. I’ve lived here all my life, and I’ve seen plenty first-hand.
“I’m trusting the uncle to do something responsible - that’s the entire point of this article and of talking about trust instead of arranging a deal. Returning the money later is one of an infinite number of potential responsible acts. Trust is the key part here - do I trust the uncle’s judgment?”
Got it. If that is the purpose, then that doesn’t seem like the best use of money for a future college student… But if that is what you would do… then that’s your call I suppose. You admit for many people the advice was bad, so… Whatever.
To me, Tom’s comment implies that while the uncle is free to do what he wants, you trust/hope he gifts it back. The only logical reason I see to gift it to a trusted relative was with the purpose to shelter it from my child’s name. (Unless they were in need and that was the true best use of the money)
“If Uncle Jim loses his job or has a medical emergency, your monetary gift to him (ie your kid’s college savings) may well be out the window, because of necessity and not because of any trust issues.”
On the other hand, if Uncle Jim uses the money as seed money for a business, Uncle Jim might take young Timmy under his wing, train him in the business, and then hand the business over someday.
Or Uncle Jim might not do much with the money, but when college comes around, young Timmy gets to live in Uncle Jim’s basement rent-free for four years.
Or infinite other things. The point is, do you have a valuable personal trust with Uncle Jim? If you do, then giving him the money might make a whole lot of sense.
“There is zero assumption of getting anything paid back.”
I beg to differ. Your first post says:
“You’re choosing to believe that some day Uncle Phil will choose to help you with college.”
That means the goal, assumption, expectation, plan here is that Uncle Phil will pay you money back.
You acknowledge your plan may not work. Yes theres risk your plan will fail if Phil doesn’t cooperate or if he dies or whatever. But that doesn’t mean your plan isn’t to have Phil pay back the money. If the plan is to give money to Phil and have Phil pay it back later then that is unethical and illegal mechanism to hide assets.
Jim
No matter how much I trust Uncle Jim, my trust won’t pay his medical bills. And my responsibility as a parent is for my child first. Therefore, I save money for my child’s college fund instead of for Uncle Jim’s medical bills.
I don’t think I would want to leave my child’s future in the hands of anyone else. It is my obligation to provide for them, not my uncle’s, not my mother’s. If I give a gift to my uncle, in my mind that means there are no strings attached whatsoever. If I am hoping that he will one day give my child a similar gift, I think I am doing a disservice to my child and their own financial future by counting on that money - heck, I think I would be doing my child a disservice by gifting away their college money in the first place…
“Unless they were in need and that was the true best use of the money”
That’s one good reason. What if Uncle Jim intended to use it as seed money for a business? It’s still a personal gift to help Jim out. I can think of millions of scenarios where giving that money over to Uncle Jim - no strings attached - is the best move. Remember, as April said in the very first comment here, “we see money as just another tool to enhance our relationships.”
PS - thanks for responding to comments further, i appreicate it. you also are getting me to click your site several times today. You probably made 30 cents off me today alone! ;)
Tom’s comment does state that he trusts that the money will be gifted back (but trust, no guaruntee). I just can’t think of millions of reasons to invest in uncle jim as seed money rather than a savings account to help my theoritical student.
By this logic, any money we don’t need right at the moment should be given away, with the trust that someone will help us out in a bigger way when we do need it - maybe with money, maybe with something else.
Face it, the original suggestion was a creative way to get around having to be honest on the FAFSA. The only reason “trust” was mentioned in the original post was because he was implying that the uncle would be expected to return the money.
Not illegal, but definitely unethical.
“That means the goal, assumption, expectation, plan here is that Uncle Phil will pay you money back.”
Perhaps, but not necessarily in the form of money, just in the form of anything you might expect from someone you trust.
Phil could help with college in a lot of ways: financial support, housing, emotional support, help with schoolwork, an internship, a key call during a job interview process, a key call during the application process, and so on. If I have a trusting relationship with Phil and I say, “I need your help with X” and Phil can do it, he probably will, whether it be money or anything else.
Umm, no. Sorry, Trent.
1. The original part of the article in question is still missing some parts. You put back the beginning, but not all of it.
2. The original part of the article in its entirety made a much stronger point that you would fully expect the money to be repaid by Uncle Phil at college time. That, to me, is where you were trying to go with all this special family trust stuff, that you don’t need a formal arrangement (which would be illegal if not reported on the FAFSA) because you can trust Uncle Phil with it.
3. If not, why invest even $10k now in Uncle Phil’s future intangible emotional support or free room or what? If you didn’t give Uncle Phil the money now (since you didn’t imply he wants or even needs it), wouldn’t you still expect your extra-special extra-trusting uncle to provide emotional support or a free room for your kid at college time?
4. Let’s assume Uncle Phil does pay the $10k back at college time. How much interest could you have earned on that original $10k in the meantime if you’d kept it in a safe investment vehicle– for example an ING-type account earning 4%– wouldn’t your original $10k be $15k in 10 years, $20k in 18 years? Uncle Phil, in comparison, pays back whatever he feels like– let’s say its the original $10k. Now add in whatever grants you get from the government– loans are still money you have to pay back, even if they have favorable interest rates. That means you need to be sure to make $5 - $10k in free grants for this to be the “better deal.”
5. The risks inherent in the above– that Uncle Phil won’t pay the money back, that your kid won’t get the free grants for whatever reason (i.e. your income improves drastically between now and then) seem very high compared to the relatively safe option of investing in a high-yield savings account or CD and just taking the hit at FAFSA time.
6. I think you are being disingenuous, probably with yourself and not just us, about why your advice was wrong. I think you could do to take a deep breath, back away, and try to feel less defenseless. This post feels like something you scraped together to rationalize your earlier advice. It doesn’t ring true.
Hi Trent, just wanted to say I really enjoy your blog for the content as well as the lively discussions. I think it’s important for people to discuss things as personal as their views on money, family, friends and trust and that it is rarely done. Thanks for letting everyone hash this out so we can all see the different opinions.
“I just can’t think of millions of reasons to invest in uncle jim as seed money rather than a savings account to help my theoritical student.”
It depends on Jim. Perhaps he uses that money to buy a new tractor for his farm that he needs in a pinch, and then pays the family back by giving them tons of food over the next few years and then gives some of the land to the student when Jim retires?
I can sit here and name all sorts of scenarios, but the point here is trust. Do you truly trust your uncle?
People commenting are falling into two camps - they understand exactly what I’m saying, or they can’t understand it and never will. Because, frankly, I’m just repeating the same idea over and over.
“People commenting are falling into two camps - they understand exactly what I’m saying, or they can’t understand it and never will. Because, frankly, I’m just repeating the same idea over and over.”
Wrong. There are at least three camps. I understand what you are saying, but I don’t agree.
Trent said:
“explain your scheme to the kids who DON’T get financial aid but who really need it and see how they feel about it.”
This is *still* assuming I’m advocating a scam. I’m not. Again, read tom’s comment - #31.
I DID read comment #31. What I’m saying is, if your plan isn’t a scam, then you should feel perfectly comfortable telling the kids who don’t get financial aid because there’s no money left in the system about it. Would you go up to a kid who can’t afford college and feel no qualms that your kid got the aid that he otherwise wouldn’t have had access to if the money hadn’t been sheltered by Uncle Phil? Do you think that kid would be alright with your plan, or would he feel like you had scammed him out of his aid?
This is what makes the plan a scam. It is socially irresponsible.
“The original part of the article in question is still missing some parts. You put back the beginning, but not all of it.”
It is 100% all there. I just inserted my clarification in the middle.
Furthermore, this is advice that isn’t for everyone, margo. If you really trust Uncle Phil, the advice is completely sensible - but if you don’t, you’re asking the very questions that you ask.
What is trust? We’re seeing a lot of different definitions at work here. And, frankly, that’s great. I would hope anyone reading this would see the different definitions at work and figure out which one matches their own.
@margo
“1. The original part of the article in question is still missing some parts. You put back the beginning, but not all of it.”
Thank you! I’m glad someone else has finally caught that. The article has since been changed even from what it was in the beginning, even with the clarifications. This to me is blatant dishonesty. The “original” article now has a completely different meaning than it originally did.
“It is 100% all there. I just inserted my clarification in the middle.”
Really? Where’s the original reference to Uncle Phil then?
“What I’m saying is, if your plan isn’t a scam, then you should feel perfectly comfortable telling the kids who don’t get financial aid because there’s no money left in the system about it.”
It’s not a scam, Stephanie. There is no scam if you give the money to someone, no questions asked, no agreements, no strings. That’s charity, not a scam.
You are choosing, yourself, to mentally add such an agreement to the equation. I’m saying there’s truly nothing there. Phil can do whatever he pleases.
Remember what April said in the first comment here: “we see money as just another tool to enhance our relationships.” If that seems foolish to you, then there’s just a gap of understanding that I can’t hope to bridge, because it requires something within you that isn’t there.
A minor aside to all of this:
If assets are held in the minor’s name, can the parents, assuming they are the custodians on the account, actually just give the money away? Don’t custodians have some sort of fiduciary duty to handle the money is a responsible way? If the child’s relationship with the parents soured, couldn’t the child sue the parents for just giving away his or her money?
My answer to the original question would be to look into the rules about whether FAFSA counts retirement assets if you were to put some of the money into an IRA, or whether there’s some type of trust that might preserve the assets for a later date.
Or you could just use the money to pay for college, which was the intent of the gift to the kids all along.
“Thank you! I’m glad someone else has finally caught that. The article has since been changed even from what it was in the beginning, even with the clarifications. This to me is blatant dishonesty. The “original” article now has a completely different meaning than it originally did.”
I left the original material there and added an explanation. What else should I have done there?
Option 1: Leave potentially misleading advice to confuse later readers.
Option 2: Delete the original advice and write something wholly new.
Option 3: Leave the original advice and add a clarification.
I chose option 3, because it’s the only one fair to current readers and to future ones. Any other choice is unfair to someone.
“Really? Where’s the original reference to Uncle Phil then?”
Uncle Phil is someone I made up in the comments - he wasn’t in the original article. At various points, he’s been Uncle Joe and the like.
I’ve spent an entire day discussing this issue with readers - that’s enough. This topic has officially been beat to death and we’re just going in circles at this point. I hope that everyone learned something from this - I know I did.
This is very bad advice and just not financially responsible, regardless of trust!
First of all I agree with margo’s comment (#65) regarding interest on the money.
Second, I have seen so many people have situations come up where people DO HAVE PEOPLE THEY TRUST, but unforseen situations come up in the future. Besides having a very trustworthy person potentially lose their job, other situations can change such as the trusted person dying and the the beneficiaries not aware of, or care, about the $10K. Also other situations change where maybe the very trustworthy person gets married and their new spouse might not be as financially trustworthy.
People have to realize that it makes absoulutely no financial sense to give money with the expectation of there being any chance of getting it back, that is not wise, REGARDLESS of if people have very trustworthy people in their lives, which I do have a few. For me personally I would help out friends and family in situations when they are in need - any money given would be given without the expectation of getting it back though since there are huge risks, out of the control of a trustworthy person.
“People have to realize that it makes absoulutely no financial sense to give money with the expectation of there being any chance of getting it back, that is not wise”
In other words, you’re opposed to charities?
No, not at all. In fact for my church we regularly donate a consistent amount weekly. I make the donation because it is important to my wife and I and our christian values. I may have misread but your article seemed to imply that money given to someone else would be coming back.
It seems to me everyone else keeps putting in the words “sheltered with Uncle Phil”. Trent never said anything about a shelter. Trent chooses to believe in the power of family. Trent is investing in the family because he trusts his family will invest in him. It is called faith.
This is not something I would personally do because my family wouldn’t be able to help when help was needed. This is really no different than a Christian believing that god will provide when needed and giving a gift to the church every week. Those of you who are reading into Trent should first look at themselves. We tend to believe others are doing what we would do. If you think this is a scam, then maybe you are looking at it with the wrong eyes.
Trent, thank you for taking the time to explain yourself in the comments.
I still don’t agree with your stance, though.
And as for the recent comments about this being an act of faith…totally different thing.
If Uncle Phil really is a trusted family member, wouldn’t he help the child, gift or no gift? If he would help without the gift, there’s no reason to give him the “gift”. If he wouldn’t, then it’s a bad decision to try and “buy” his love and support by giving him a gift.
@Trent,
From a comment..
“You are choosing, yourself, to mentally add such an agreement to the equation. I’m saying there’s truly nothing there. Phil can do whatever he pleases.”
From the mailbag article..
“There are a lot of risks in doing this. You’re relying on the idea that Uncle Phil is good with money and not prone to blowing that money that you give him. You’re choosing to believe that some day Uncle Phil will choose to help you with college. You’re also believing that Uncle Phil will live that long, because if he dies, that money will be folded into his estate.”
Wow, just wow. Not sure how those two statements are supposed to stand together as meaning the same thing. I guess we all have very vivid imaginations.
@Patrick,
“This is not something I would personally do because my family wouldn’t be able to help when help was needed. This is really no different than a Christian believing that god will provide when needed and giving a gift to the church every week.”
There is a huge difference between giving towards the ministry of God with faith that he will provide for you and giving to an relative with the faith that they will pull through for you. The scenarios are not even in the same ballpark.
I thought your answer was great. This was done for me to help with the cost of my education and I’m very grateful.
Another thing we should remember is that FAFSA is not the fairest in allocating money. My roommate from the Midwest received a huge amount of aid - her expected contribution was something like $3,000/year, based on her parents’ incomes. I’m from the east coast, so my parents’ incomes were higher which made the expected contribution higher - but so was our cost of living! She managed to make that $3,000/year on her own and left school with no loans. On the other hand, I left with $20,000 of debt. I think cheating the system is perfectly OK, because quite often the system is cheating you.
Fortunately I have a great job (thanks, Cornell) - but I’m still pissed off about the unfairness of FAFSA and how they don’t take into account the cost of living in your area.
You either believe in your family or you don’t? I don’t have a faith in god but believe in my family? YMMV.
I was also going to bring up the comparison to tithing. That’s basically what the proposal has evolved into as Trent clarified it over time; the only difference is the group involved (tithing:congregation :: “uncle phil’ing”:family). It’s based on the premise that you share everything you have with a group, and they share everything they have with you. The way trust comes in is because everyone in the group has to be playing by the same rules; if part of the group is taking but not giving then the system breaks down.
It would seem a little less condescending if it was phrased “not everyone is part of such a community.” Instead of all this stuff about “trust” and even insulting statements about “something within you that isn’t there.” Ouch.
“Trent is investing in the family because he trusts his family will invest in him.”
Bingo. You either believe it or you don’t.
“Trent is investing in the family because he trusts his family will invest in him.”
Bingo. You either believe it or you don’t.”
But that is sooo not what the original post was about. It was about giving the money away to hide it from the financial aid people, then getting it back later. It only became about trust and family after people pointed out how unethical that was.
Trent,
Bottom line here is that you should probably advise people with what everyone else would do and not what you yourself would do. People are making assumptions that your family wouldn’t help you unless you made the gift, which I don’t remember reading in your article. They are assuming that is what you are saying.
I hear what you are saying. You would give the gift to help out SOMEONE, whom you trust and whom needs it, KNOWING that they or SOMEONE in your family will be there when you need it because that is the nucleus of YOUR family. Again, I don’t have that ability with my family. I’m in a better situation than most of them so they probably wouldn’t be able to help.
I think they are being distracted by that message because you mention that, to paraphrase, “oh and btw, this won’t hurt for loan applications because it’s gifted”.
While others think it is unethical, I think that it really depends. If that amount is not large enough to help with college, but large enough to HURT your chances to get loans (which I’ve seen), I don’t think it’s unethical.
I personally have a friend who’s daughter couldn’t get a financial loan, for college, because she lived with her mother, who made to much money. The mother is over her head with a mortgage that she assumed from her parents and now can’t give anything to help her daughter but free room. The daughter is an adult. Why should it be assumed a parent’s income will be passed on to the child? The requirements are broad and doesn’t suit many situations. I get what you are saying about playing on the same field as others. Some people need just a little helping hand but can’t get it because the “loopholes” say they make to much.
@Patrick
Trent is not basing the gift on which family member needs it though. He doesn’t say “Find a relative who needs the money and give it to them to help them.”
He says the money could, in theory, be spent on bubble gum.
comment #89. I think that is because Trent originally didn’t word it the way it was in his head, which he’s pointed out several times.
I’m amazed how many times Trent has explained himself with the words “I didn’t write this the way I meant to” and someone comes back and says “but that’s not the way you worded it in the original”.
Dee - Even if he said “Find someone who needs the money”, it could still, in theory, be spent on bubble gum. The point is “I would give it to someone I trust (which expanded to) to do something responsible (which expanded to) with no strings attached and no expectations”. Trent believes that person would help when help is needed (but notes they don’t have to). It is everyone else that is reading “if I scratch my back, you can scratch mine, so I can get around these pesky requirements to scam money away from college loans”.
Typo corrected.
It is everyone else that is reading “if I scratch your back, you can scratch mine, so I can get around these pesky requirements to scam money away from college loans”.
@Patrick.
Ok. That makes sense.
I just understand the logic behind giving away your child’s money when you don’t expect anything in return. That’s what makes Trent’s responses seem disingenuous because it doesn’t make much sense.
How does giving away money get your child any closer to paying for college? If you say, because it lowers the amount of assets claimed on your FAFSA…then that is gaming the system and I think that’s what a lot of people feel is unethical.
If that is not the intent, then it’s completely irresponsible to throw away money that was in hand.
* I just DON’T understand…
Dee - Which is why Trent said it is what he would do and it is because he has a different world view. He’s realized that he has a different view of things and has said so.
Granted. I think Trent’s original post blew it badly. I think that because the questioner said ” am told this money shouldn’t be in their names when they are applying for college financial aid, but I am unsure what to do with it.”
The explanation to that made sense to me. Be charitable and those you trust to be charitable back will help you when you need it.
The question I have is, what amount of money are we talking here? If it’s not enough to really help with college, but it could hurt financial aid, I agree completely with Trent. If, however, it is enough to make a dent in college, but it in a fund or a CD or something. It will only help more later. I think this has all come out badly.
Thanks for explaining Patrick.
I agree with Dee. I’ve actually really enjoyed reading all these comments about helping out family members and whatnot, I guess I too just don’t get why this all came about as an answer to a question of how can I best help my kids pay for college/get value out of an inheritance that was left to them to pay for college. I think part of the problem is that the original answer, and this discussion, has wandered so far afield of the original starting point that it’s… I don’t even know what to call it.
As Dee said, how does advising someone to give away a college nest egg help anyone pay for college? Even if Uncle Jim gives our fictional student free room and board in four years or free land in forty, that doesn’t help the kid come up with money to pay tuition. That money, it seems to be implied, will come from either the government, as a handout, or as personal loans and a debt burden. This advice is not something I imagine most people would have very much interest in following.
Patrick (and several others in this thread): thank you. You were able to get across something that I was having difficulty getting across, probably because I botched my original comment so badly and was thus trapped in a cycle of saying, “That’s not what I meant.” So, thank you, truly.
I do have a question I would like added to a future mailbag. If you’re not already part of such a family/church/community/etc, how might you go about becoming part of one?
My response to the original should have been as follows:
“I am a firm believer in charity, especially within my own family. If you have a small amount of money that’s just sitting in a savings account and you’re concerned about it affecting financial aid, use it for family charity. Give it to someone in your family that could really use it right now - all it’s doing for you at the moment is sitting in a savings account collecting a tiny amount of interest and probably hurting your financial aid case. When the time comes, the family goodwill you’ve built up will pay more dividends than your kids can imagine, because charity begats charity.”
My original response was horribly botched because I was trying to answer the question in a very narrow fashion - too narrow - in order to get the point across. That made it appear as though I were suggesting a contract, which wasn’t what I was saying at all.
“If you’re not already part of such a family/church/community/etc, how might you go about becoming part of one?”
Wow, that’s a great one. That should be a post all its own.
Trent - I think comment 102 is perfect. If you are truly worried about it hurting financial aid (and you aren’t trying to figure out a way to shelter it), Trent’s suggestion fits.
ok. here’s my question. If this whole family trust/good investment thing is such a grand idea seperate from college education and the fafsa, then why was this never posited as an idea for retirement money?
Is it because you don’t need to report how much retirement savings you have to start collecting social security?
Or is it just because you never thought to mention it anymore.
Basically, if your whole idea is exactly what you say it is then why was it brought up specifically in a question about what to do with money given to you for future education costs?
Are you personally going to stop investing into your children’s 529 plans and instead give this money to relatives?
(I’m not attacking you trent, not at all, I’m simply trying to give you the devil’s advocate position so that you can try to understand why people aren’t accepting your responses)
For me the issue has nothing to do with whether or not you trust your family members. The issue is that you are hiding money from a government agency for your own personal gain, at the detriment of others who may not have family they can count on like you do. The government is there to (for one thing) ensure that people without access to education, health, or housing can have adequate access to the necessities of life. If you are using this system for your own benefit by doing what you’re proposing, then this is in fact taking advantage of the system’s imperfections. IMO it IS YOUR responsibility and MY responsibility, not only the systems, to act in a socially responsible manner.
So you trust your family members — that’s great. But you are being dishonest (and as one poster said, criminal) by hiding (or “gifting,” whatever you want to call it) this money. You are taking that financial aid from someone who is more needy than you are. These are the people the system was designed for, no matter how clever you are to find the loopholes, you are being dishonest and uncivil.
I have been reading this blog for a while and am frankly surprised and slightly offended that you would suggest this kind of scheme. And yes, it is a scheme, in that it is purposefully deceiving a federal aid agency for your own personal gain. Wrap it in whatever flowery justifications you want — family love and trust — but it is STILL cheating a poor kid out of their money.
While I agree that it’s good to be charitable and generous with family (there is personal value to that) I really don’t think it’s financially sound to tie family charity towards money for college.
If one wants to be generous with family I totally understand, I think that should be something separate. I just don’t think it’s a good idea to make financial decisions based on the “charity begats charity” idea.
Stephanie, there is *zero* expectation of anything being paid back. If there is anything paid back, it should be reported on the FAFSA. How is that hidden?
I’m saying that maybe instead of just holding the money in an account for twelve years, it might be better being used for family charity.
Chris: lots of people use their retirement savings to help their children out. My in-laws used a lot of their retirement money to help their kids and guess what? We’re going to help them when the time comes. That’s exactly what I’m talking about.
yes trent, I can understand that and it’s fine. but the devil’s advocate position is that you pretty much never mentioned this until the question of what to do with college savings and get financial aid came up, making it seem as if you were suggesting a scheme as stephanie said, regardless of whether that was your intention or not. It looked and will continue to look that way to some people no matter what you say.
#102 is much better than the original and I applaud you for taking the time to write that.
I still disagree with your rationale, but I believe I understand where you’re coming from now.
Um, you said, and I quote,
“Should that be reported on the FAFSA? I think it’s ridiculous to think so.”
as someone from an abusive family, i really appreciate the clarification. i WISH i could trust my family. i WISH i could feel safe with them. instead, i have a mother who tried to kill me when i refused to cosign on her second mortgage and guilt-tripped me into paying for everything while telling me nothing i did was ever good enough for her. if you do have a family you can trust, that is priceless. thank goodness i at least have good friends.
Stephanie - Trent never said anything about hiding this money to take advantage of the FAFSA. Everyone else did. The original poster commented that they heard that having the money in a child’s name is a bad thing to do (for the FAFSA requirement), not Trent. I think everyone is reading in their own response for Trent.
Personally, I don’t think the “government is there to (for one thing) ensure that people without access to education, health, or housing can have adequate access to the necessities of life.” They do every thing pretty poorly, so why would anyone want them to attempt charity?
Trent,
Regarding your post to Chris, what happens if a parent uses the money to help their children but the kids never come through? They either just don’t have enough the money or not enough to spread the wealth.
But he IS hiding it if he doesn’t expect it to be reported. He is saying that his brother / sister has helped him out a lot financially over his lifetime, so he’s going to gift some money to his nieces and nephews. So there is a reciprocity, one type of aid traded for another. In his original post, this situation does not need to be claimed on the FAFSA. In other words, the gifted money is hidden.
THEN he says in the comment above (#108) that such reciprocities should be reported.
Which is it, Trent?
What about the families who aren’t lucky enough to get such gifts?
Also, Patrick, I hold my government to these standards. If you don’t, then they’ll never meet them. They are here for us, not the other way around.
I haven’t read through all these comments. But tom, in comment 31, gives a pretty good explanation (to me) of why even what Trent’s being accused of suggesting isn’t illegal. I personally don’t even see that it’s immoral.
And Stephanie, I think it’s pretty clear that Trent is saying that if you give the money to a relative, you don’t have to report it because it’s not in your possession, but that when he returns the money you have to report it as income or assets held on your FAFSA.
I can be pretty self-righteous myself, but this outcry is just silly. If you people knew half the things tax attorneys do on behalf of wealthy clients, things that are totally legal, you’d laugh at this debate.
I think there is another problem here. Does a parent have a right to give away a child’s inheritance? If the money has been gifted to the child can or should a parent give it to someone else? Trent said that he would give it with no expectation of repayment. How would your child feel if the deal went south and mom and dad gave away a portion of their college savings and it was never returned or the person passed away and the money disappeared forever. How would the relationship with the family members change if the person who received the money used it on something else and then could not return the money, as is basically implied by the giving away of the CHILD’s money. Let’s face it this is a gift with strings attached, maybe not in a way that can have binding legal repayment requirements, but definitely in spirit. I see a family meltdown over a scheme like this! Please don’t insult us by saying that it is a goodwill gift and nothing more. This is a child’s college fund we’re talking about…of course you expect the money back!
Imelda, the original mailbag question was about what to do with gifted money when applying for financial aid. Trent’s response was not “report the money on the FAFSA.” He was advocating a way to avoid reporting it.
If I’ve misunderstood, then I’m sorry. But I do not in any way see how “it’s pretty clear” that he did not intend to hide this money.
“But he IS hiding it if he doesn’t expect it to be reported. He is saying that his brother / sister has helped him out a lot financially over his lifetime, so he’s going to gift some money to his nieces and nephews. So there is a reciprocity, one type of aid traded for another. In his original post, this situation does not need to be claimed on the FAFSA. In other words, the gifted money is hidden.
THEN he says in the comment above (#108) that such reciprocities should be reported.
Which is it, Trent?”
If I gift such money to my nieces and nephews, it should be reported on the FAFSA. I reported all financial gifts and aid I received on my FAFSA. I’m under no obligation to gift them a dime, but if I choose to, they should report it.
You’re looking for a contradiction that isn’t there.
Not to beat a dead horse here, but…
Trent said he agreed with post #31, which states:
“…4) The money will be gifted back to Trent’s kid from Uncle Jim when he goes off to college. Only if Uncle Jim wants to.
5) None of these transactions need to be reported on FAFSA (it’s not your money afterall).”
See why there is reason for confusion here, Trent?
“Um, you said, and I quote,
“Should that be reported on the FAFSA? I think it’s ridiculous to think so.””
That’s 100% correct. If I give a gift of $5,000 to Uncle Bob, I don’t have to report that on my FAFSA. The entire conversation was about *gifted money*. I only have to report gifts given to me, not ones that I give.
Stephanie, “Only if Uncle Jim wants to.”
If that money is gifted, then it needs to be reported. But you don’t have to report a gift until it’s given. You can’t fill out your FAFSA based on gifts you think you might get - you have to fill it out based on what you actually receive.
OK, thanks for clearing that up. It wasn’t clear before, at least not to me.
Though I still don’t understand the point of your original post to the mailbag question — I would hope financial aid agencies would need to be made aware of any tuition support, housing, etc that wasn’t originally claimed, even if it’s not cash.
But maybe things are just different in the U.S.
“What about the families who aren’t lucky enough to get such gifts?”
That’s one of the big problems with how higher education works today and it’s far outside my ability to solve it. My opinion is that higher education should be 100% merit based. Each school admits a certain percentage of their incoming class - the ones with the most merit - with completely free tuition, room, and board. The rest of the class is responsible for their own, via any grants or loans they can get. Independent scholarships could target low-income students who meet the admission criteria, but fail to meet the “free” criteria. This would eliminate the need for the FAFSA or any of this other silliness, and gives students with merit a huge runway on which to succeed.
If you give money and expect something back, be it money, or loyalty or favors, that’s a loan. That can be foolish.
If you give money and don’t expect anything back, that’s a gift. There’s nothing foolish about it. There is nothing at al

This is one of the many reasons I really like your blog, Trent. You are honest AND trustworthy. You obviously have integrity and a good deal of humility to be able to write this.
My family, I think, functions a lot like yours. No one has ever screwed anyone else over, partly because we see money as just another tool to enhance our relationships. Money has always been available when needed and we will always be sure that others have the same safety net.
My dad is a CFP and handles the investments for the entire family — his parents, siblings, in-laws, children and our spouses, and his grandchildren. We all know he does his best and we all trust his opinions and expertise. And we also know that every decision he makes, he feels the responsibility we’ve given him.
I guess there are a lot more people in the world who don’t have the benefit of solid relationships like this, though. Your children are getting quite a gift when you pass on to them the vision of an honest and trustworthy family. Way to go!
And thanks again for your thoughtful response.
April @ 12:42 pm April 7th, 2008 (comment #1)