Comments on: Saving Money Versus Saving the World

By: Krista

Krista — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:50:14 +0000

What a great post. I recently got out of about 20K in consumer debt. It took almost two years and during that time I was both cheap and frugal and not so environmentally or community minded. Since getting out of debt, I have resumed my support of community business, local farmers, non-sweatshop goods, etc. I feel good about this choice because really focusing on debt and eliminating it made it possible for me to give back to the community in a responsible and positive way that I was unable to do before. For me, I just had to strike a balance with what I was comfortable with.

By: Beth

Beth — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:23:12 +0000

I prefer to shop at my local grocery store, even though it’s a bit more expensive, because:
1. I can walk there. No parking hassles! no traffic!
2. They sell quality items. They offer a range, so I don’t have to buy the MOST expensive thing every time, but it’s always fresh and good.
3. I like seeing familiar faces at the register and at the meat counter.

I could save money if I shopped at Big Box Store, but I think the quality of the food and experience is worth it.

Also, as a friend said once about shopping organic/local: if we don’t do it, who will? and the more who do it, the greater the demand will become, therefore (hopefully) lowering prices. that was ten years ago, so I think she was onto something.

By: Michael

Michael — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 02:37:27 +0000

A note about Fair Trade:

Of the high margin you (the consumer) pay for a ‘fair trade’ commodity, a very low portion actually goes to the producer. Most of the cost of what you are buying comes from value added after the initial producer sells the good.

So when you pay that extra $1 for your coffee, you’re really just telling Starbucks that you have a lot of disposable income.

Instead, why don’t you vote (and lobby) to eliminate subsidies for agribusiness. Really, does CONAGRA need more money? Ask a small-time farmer in Kansas how much money he gets from subsidies, for comparison.

Trade will only be fair when we stop using taxdollars to help out our big agriculture companies.

By: LC

LC — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:32:05 +0000

Johanna – I couldn’t have said it better myself.

“people are not forced to work in sweatshops. They choose to…Because…it is better than the other options available to them.”

By: Anne

Anne — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:26:23 +0000

Frugality is totally compatible with environmentalism when they both are aiming a the same goal: Using only what you need and cleaning up after yourself. I have a friend who was a single parent who was incredibly proud of her clothes-buying ability. She made it a habit to visit the thrift stores regularly, shopped with a keen eye and made use of bonus days and coupons. However, the amount of clothing she had meant she had to rent houses with walk-in closets so she’d have enough room to store it all.

By: deepali

deepali — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 01:43:16 +0000

While I think personal frugality is important, communal frugality is not unimportant. They also don’t need to be at cross-purposes. Things that are “cheap” are not always – it’s just that the price structure is opaque.
I highly recommend checking out “the story of stuff” to understand why cheap is not really cheap.

And contrary to what someone said above, not all pricing at your farmers’ market is based on what consumers pay – it’s based on an analysis of what the farmers can actually afford (having priced foods for a farmers’ market, I can say that with accuracy).

By: Ro

Ro — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:31:18 +0000

Nice post, interesting discussion as well.

By: Kandace

Kandace — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:18:02 +0000

As I’ve practiced true frugality over the last few years I’ve realized that in spending less and making more conscious choices, my recycling has doubled, my trash is down to less than one bag a week, I have less “stuff”, fewer utility costs, more peace and more in the bank. Living frugally is a giant step toward going green. It’s a backlash against consumerism and helps save the planet in the process.

By: InvestEveryMonth.com

InvestEveryMonth.com — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:13:56 +0000

I think it takes a two step effort:

First, try to be sustainable and respectful of the environment and human rights when you make purchases. Don’t add to the market for unsustainable products. Do you really need a Hummer to make you feel better as you drive 10 minutes to work on paved roads?

Second, offset any damage you are doing by being active for the issues you are interested in. My automobile gas consumption is a small part of the overall oil problem, but my political activism for clean energy and gas free cars has influenced lots of people.

By: Dan

Dan — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:28:13 +0000

My advice would be to go to your local community college and take a couple economics classes (micro + macro). When I went back to school a couple of years ago these were some of the more useful and interesting classes I had.

Paying a premium for a commodity doesn’t do what you think it does…If anything it ends up lowering the commodity price (supply increases as producers seek to optimize their share leading to unsold iventory which must still be sold).

It’s generally best to just let the “invisible hand” work out commodity pricing. If you want to give to charity – just give to charity.

As far as farmer’s markets go – the pricing there is not based on the cost to produce the goods – it is based (like anything) on what the consumer will pay – in this case it is higher based on perceived quality and social values.

On the other hand – if it makes you feel good to do these things – just move money on your budget from entertainment to food to cover the difference.

By: John

John — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:00:14 +0000

To rhymeswithlibrarian, buying used sweatshop clothing does not let you off the hook ethically. You’re simply refunding the original buyer for the remaining value of the product. So you effectively become a co-buyer of the original purchase.

By: Johanna

Johanna — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:52:26 +0000

Ken: Actually, the fact is, we DO know. That’s what independent certification schemes are for. The one for fair trade is described in detail at transfairusa.org. The “big companies” can’t use the fair trade certified logo unless they hold up their end of the bargain.

Obviously, you have to be careful, because not every nice-looking logo corresponds to a truly meaningful set of standards. So you have to do your research. But I’ve done my research into fair trade, and I think the standards are pretty good. If you have any specific evidence of abuse of the fair trade certification scheme, I’d be interested in seeing it, but I’ve never seen any, myself.

About that recycling truck: it’s called commingled recycling. See, they’ve figured out ways to separate the paper and plastic and all that good stuff at the recycling plant, so your wife doesn’t have to do it herself. Ain’t technology grand?

By: Michael

Michael — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:47:03 +0000

If you want to be green, don’t drink coffee unless you grow it.

By: Ken Montville

Ken Montville — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:00:59 +0000

My thing on Fair Trade and organic and the like is: “How do you know?” The fact is: you don’t. People can put anything they want on the package and until someone does a ton of expensive research to “expose” the wrong doers we’re stuck with buying whatever on faith.

Slightly, off topic, my wife is a big recycler. YAY! She separates paper and plastic and all that good stuff. One day I happened to be home when the recycling truck came by and witnessed with my own eyes the guys throwing everything into the same vast bin in the back of the truck. As far as I know it went directly to a landfill somewhere.

So even thought we’re trying to do good, we have no way of knowing if the “big companies” are holding up their end of the bargain.

By: Todd

Todd — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:40:18 +0000

As sad as it is to say, I don’t believe that the concept of economic protectionism (buy local) has the traction to be sustainable in most cases. Like it or not, our goods are in a global marketplace where profit is the main motivation. Consumers are going to seek out the best value for their dollar.

By: MoneyBlogga

MoneyBlogga — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:37:52 +0000

For me, “value” means getting the most for my dollar. It has to be this way because of my past spending habits. I have to make up for many years of lost time. Also the fact that I have 4 dependents in college has forced me to reconcile my bad spending habits with the fact that there will not be enough money for my retirement. Making sure we have enough money to go around without going into debt is the most important thing to me right now.

Having said that, I am making strides in cutting back in ways I never have before.

I live in a wealthy neighborhood. I’m sure my neighbors love it when I hang out the laundry on the washing line I installed between the back walls of my house. I don’t care. I see it as being “green”, being frugal, not wasting resources – and it’s better for the clothes. It’s something I will continue to do regardless of the blank stares I get. The neighbors will get used to it because I’ve been doing it now for a year.

We’ve also cut back on needless trips in the car and we make a point of driving 55mph. The gas lasts longer.

We stay out of the mall and only buy new clothes and shoes when we absolutely need them. We have such a supply in the closets anyway, the supply will outlive us all.

Food – total cutbacks right across the board.

We ask ourselves: (a) Do we really need this item? (b) Do we already have it in the garage/closet/drawer/shed? (c) Can we borrow from friends/family? (d) Can we get it cheap at a garage sale?

By: Mo Money

Mo Money — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:14:22 +0000

Each of us will do what we feel is best for us. We can’t save the whole world from what we feel is best for the world.

By: Ken Clark - CollegeSavings.About.com

Ken Clark - CollegeSavings.About.com — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:31:08 +0000

Great article… having this discussion with a client just the other day!

By: Dividends4Life

Dividends4Life — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:28:48 +0000

You have hit on a key concept in:

>Frugality isn’t about what’s cheap. It’s about
>finding the best value for your dollar.

When when my wife and I were first married we bought the cheapest toilet paper it was thin and loosely wound; thus we went through a lot of rolls. We learned later by paying a little more we could actually save money. The best value was in the slightly more expensive brand.

Best Wishes,
D4L

By: Tim

Tim — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:15:48 +0000

Really interesting post that has implication for my personal and professional finances. I work at a nonprofit human rights organization… and I’m constantly thinking about our office’s choices about consumption. If we buy fair trade coffee, recycled paper, and use union labor to clean our office… we’re using a lot more of our (limited!) resources on overhead. But… if we skimp on costs, we’re not being “socially responsible.” The same is true of my personal finances. Because I’m working in the nonprofit sector… I’m sacrificing a bit of income… which means my family have less to spend at home. It seems hypocritical to spend all day working to improve conditions for people in the developing world… only to come home and contribute to labor exploitation through our purchases. So… our buying habits are definitely subject to ongoing debate.