You are both correct that having 4WD is not a replacement for common sense and driving ability, I didn’t mean to give that impression. For the better part of my driving career (coming up on 25 years), I’ve had a 4WD vehicle of some sort. Stopping a 4WD vehicle is no different than stopping any other vehicle, the same tactics apply. I would argue, however, that steering ability is enhanced. I for one PREFER having the ability to “slide” the rear-end of the vehicle, if necessary, “steering with the throttle” so to speak. I can guide my Explorer through a slippery turn much better than my wife’s FWD mini-van. Most people that I know who learned to drive an “old-fashioned” rear-wheel-drive car agree with me.

That said, the biggest advantage to 4WD is the ability to GO when it’s time to go. When the light turns green, I can be halfway to the next light while the mini-van beside me is still floundering at the last one.

To each his own, I guess. I love winter driving, I love my Explorers (this is my third one).

This is the same as discussions about buying organic food, local food, or from local companies. The hidden costs of our choices are often dramatic, and we won’t see those until further down the line. A fuel efficient car (not necessarily a hybrid–there are very efficient non-hybrid cars), well-maintained and well-driven for maximum efficiency and life, should not be an option we who have to drive “consider”–it should be the baseline for what we’ll settle for. Our planet, our global neighbors, and our children deserve better than the cost we saddle them with otherwise.

teri @ 3:09 pm December 4th, 2008 (comment #9)

When prices were high, people paid close attention to fuel efficiency, both in the form of more efficient cars and in terms of their own driving habits. Now that prices have gone down, people are still looking for efficient vehicles, but they are definitely abandoning the habits that also lead to savings. Combining trips, driving their vehicles at the appropriate speed (for the best efficiency), using public transportation and similar tactics are starting to fall by the wayside as people shift their focus from conservation to convenience.

But worse than this is the impact of low fuel prices upon the effort to develop alternative energy sources. People complain that “Big Oil” killed the efforts at developing alternative energy years ago, but that’s probably only half true (and I suspect that Big Oil is now one of the biggest backers of alternative energy research, in an effort to get in on the ground floor when a breakthrough is made). The biggest thing that managed to cut funding before, and appears likely to do the same again if prices remain low for too long, is the cost vs. reward comparison.

Most alternatives to oil are expensive to develop and implement. Even if we suddenly have the “perfect” solution today (say a breakthrough in fusion power and we can sudddenly get limitless nearly free electricity anywhere we want it) we are facing hundreds of billions to trillions of dollars in costs to make use of it. All of the “gas stations” in the US will eventually need to be re-equipped to sell the new fuel. Methods for transporting it would need to be developed and then implemented on a huge scale (do we need fleets of tanker trucks, or millions of miles of new high voltage power lines to meet this demand?) Inevitably there would be political fights at the federal, state and local level over everything from regulating and taxing this new power source to fights over people not wanting unsightly new systems (like the aforementioned massive new power lines if we go with electric cars) near their homes.

And then there is the cost to replace tens of millions of cars, trucks, buses, SUVs, etc. with new vehicles that use the new alternative energy. Even if we can simply modify existing vehicles to run off our new power source, that will still cost a lot of money when you apply it on a national scale.

And that is the just the implementation costs. More than likely we’re looking at several years of expensive development down multiple potential paths rather than a single amazing breakthrough tomorrow morning. With gas prices going back down, our interest in funding both the research and infrastructure needed to make any of the potential alternative energy sources viable to replace oil in our lives is going to decline rapidly. While President-elect Obama wants to continue and increase funding to the research, he will need Congress to go along with this goal, something that will become increasingly difficult if prices remain low. Politicians are just as fickle as the public when it comes to doing the “right thing” since their primary interest is in being re-elected.

Plain and simple, while low gas prices will help us save today, it will only make it harder for us to change our habits (and options) tomorrow. As I said before, I’d rather see the prices stay higher and the US continue to put the effort into developing an alternative and changing away from oil, than see everything grind to a halt until the next price shock.

Howsomeever, I will not do extraordinary things that are not cost effective. My 2000 Taurus uses E85 and I would love to use it. But – if the cost per gallon is not 45-50 cents, I cannot afford it. I am retired, on a limited income, and must make the money go as far as possible. My Taurus is only able to get 19-20 mpg when I used E85.

This is a common sentiment among 4wd owners, and it’s true that 4wd does have certain advantages in slippery conditions. However, regardless of your statement about econoboxes, a Honda Accord or Civic that is properly equipped with new technology snow tires does pretty well too, I can tell you from experience. (I live in the Northeast.)

I would like to point out that the primary utility of 4WD is in maintaining *driving* traction, which is primarily good at getting the vehicle out of standstill, but it has no effect on *braking traction* whatsoever. It is quite common for drivers in a 4WD vehicle to underestimate the stopping distance required for their vehicles because the added drive traction gives a false sense of the traction that is available for braking, which in an ice situation is minimal. Also, the high driving position tends to make most drivers *feel* that they are in a commanding position and hence safer, although if you looked at vehicle dynamics the Explorer, with its greater mass and higher center of mass, is both harder to both turn and stop than a lighter, lower vehicle, making it more difficult to avoid potential collisions. This is a case where the “feeling” of safety and control does not necessarily translate into actual safety and control.

About the lack of effect of 4wd on braking: Maybe you knew that, maybe not…but I thought I’d mention it when I read your post. When you are braking, almost all of the braking happens on the front tires due to weight shift on the vehicle. They will quickly overload in a low traction situation and you will lose the ability to steer the vehicle while it slides straight forward (unless you use ABS braking properly or know how to, and are practiced at, and instantly begin cadence braking or “pumping the brake”). If you have a manual transmission, disengaging the clutch mechanism by pressing on the clutch pedal will also help you to regain control of steering. (you can also do this on an automatic, but you have to practice it because it’s a pretty small shift lever movement from drive to neutral).

ABS helps in this scenario, but doesn’t necessarily reduce stopping distance..

If anyone wants to read more about such topics, the book Drive to Survive is a good read that will teach most drivers quite a lot.

Be Well.

that almost certainly means government intervention of some kind, and is politically difficult, especially with gas prices. but it’s one of the few things economists of all stripes can agree about.

your assertion that the last three years should teach us something about the virtues of individual conservation is silly. there are many good reasons to conserve both water & fossil fuels, but there is nothing in particular about the last three years that teaches us that, particularly your assertion that with full certainty “gas prices will go up” — the last three years (looking at the price of a barrel of oil) actually seem to suggest that “what goes up, must come down” — but that doesn’t fit into your story so you ignore it.

Seriously, I was not trying to insult steve or call him out or make him feel victimized but I am trying to point out that for a most people, gas milage is truly a secondary concern. Even at $5 a gallon there’s no way you’d see some of my friends in a Prius.

Saving the planet is okay for some people, but for a lot of people you really just consider that another option to consider. Not everyone can (or wants to) drive a little hybrid. Like I said before, give me a low priced kei-car for the summer and I’d be happy.

That is one, and only one, aspect of the known role of carbon dioxide in the ecosystem.

As to gas mileage, Michelle, I have had numerous cars over the years – all used. My first to drive a lot was a 1979 Buick Electra Ltd. – the next to largest car Buick built. I did lots of highway miles and got 25-26 city and 29-30 hwy. It might drop a mile or two in the winter months.

My next car was a 1991 Chev Lumina 4 dr. It got about the same amount. I have kept meticulous records on all the cars I have driven for the last 21 years.

I now drive a 2000 Ford Taurus Station Wagon and I get 22-25 mpg in town and from 29-34 on the road. Of course, with this car I am using fuel efficient methods of driving. I drive 55-60 on the highway, park so I can pull forward, shut my engine down or put it in neutral if stopped for 10 seconds or more, use cruise and air cond when driving on the hwy. My last two trips my highest mileage was 32.9 and 33.9. And these were on 2 big cars.

My above exchange with battra has reminded me that I have a request for everyone who visits this site, which I truly enjoy. I come here for education and to share with other posters and with Trent, not to be angered by someone insulting me, which it is clear to me that battra was doing with him comment. I also realize that what I posted above in response to battra’s post was insulting to him in its own way and I apologize to battra and to the forum members for engaging in a personal attack on this public forum.

Please let us all remember that it’s possible to state our views and without being insulting and that it is possible to be respectful of each other as *people* even while being hard on the *issue*.

It is true that some people don’t “believe” in global warming. However, my post was intended for those who do understand global warming and might appreciate a reminder that that making a vehicle decision based only on the current whim of marketplace fuel prices is shortsighted from the perspective of the impact on their neighbors, their communities, and their children’s and families’ futures.