Love to all,

Jennifer

And you’re right. I don’t know everything. Particle physics is beyond me. As is the psychological reason someone would watch “American Idol.”

I didn’t describe you as lying, over-sensitive, and whining. You did. I’ll leave it to the psychologists to determine the meaning behind that behavior.

Despite any discrimination you may or may not have experienced, it is up to YOU to make your way in life. If you believe you can, you will. If you believe you can’t, you won’t. If you believe that, because you’re a woman, you will never be the CEO of a major company, you’re right. If you believe that, because of your multiple sclerosis and being bound to a wheelchair, you will never get that dream job as Oprah’s hairstylist, you won’t.

If you instead believe that you can do those things DESPITE your disadvantages, you are miles ahead of the person who wallows in their victimhood.

Whether you believe you can or you can’t, you’re right.

Doug, try rolling in in a wheelchair to your next job interview and tell me there is no institutional discrimination! You might also want to acknowledge the reality that YOU DON’T KNOW EVERYTHING. You haven’t experienced the reality of other people, and in your arrogance, you decide that because you, personally, haven’t experienced it, clearly the rest of us are lying, over-sensitive, and whining.

Now, THAT, Doug, is an attitude problem that you really need to deal with to get further in life.

Doug, try rolling in in a wheelchair to your next job interview and tell me there is no institutional discrimination! You might also want to acknowledge the reality that YOU DON’T KNOW EVERYTHING. You haven’t experienced the reality of other people, and in your arrogance, you decide that because you, personally, haven’t experienced it, clearly the rest of us are lying, over-sensitive, and whining.

And with that, troll, I’m done.

I’ve lived in large cities and I noticed something interesting. I’ve never met a homeless person with a foreign accent. A fellow with dark skin and poor English arrives on the shores of America and amazingly embraces whatever opportunity presents itself and recognized the relative improvement over where they left.

Maybe that’s because I’ve worked for women, minorities, and one gay man. I work with a lesbian black female who puts at least two of my white male coworkers to shame, and she is rewarded for it.

Your own lens of victimhood would say such a woman wouldn’t have made her own way in the world due to “institutional racism” or “discrimination.”

You can sit and dwell on whether or not you were discriminated against, but it really doesn’t help you move forward with life and end up successful.

Again, “whether you believe you can or can’t, you’re right.” Maybe I just choose to associate myself with those who believe they can, instead of hanging around those who can’t. That difference alone will level out that playing field. Unless you’re one who “can’t.” In that case, the field becomes rocky and mountainous through no fault of your birth.

And THAT is what the woe-is-me, can’t-do attitude is. And it bugged me just as much as it bugged everybody else. But that’s not what I’m seeing here. What I’m seeing here is people who already know how to succeed, because they’ve already achieved some measure of success, but they realize that due to circumstances out of their control, they’ve had to work harder to get where they are. See the difference?

“Sorry you don’t like the fact that employers see you as a ‘troublemaker.’”

Here is what I actually said–and please note, reading is fundamental, Doug–”Third, the one thing that we’re often told is that bringing a lawsuit or notifying the ‘proper’ authorities will come back to haunt the person who complains. These folks are seen as troublemakers. Word gets around and they get blackballed. Just suck it up, stop being a victim, and move on.”

“Your own examples show that people will overcome hurdles if they choose to overcome them. The person who falls down and refuses to get back up, who claims ‘discrimination’ and then thinks the world owes him/her something has chosen his/her path, and will get exactly what what they have earned.”

And this is incredibly arrogant and condescending to everyone who has posted on this thread. What makes you think that people who acknowledge that some people have advantages others do not just give up trying? And seriously? The scare quotes around discrimination like it doesn’t actually exist? Get real. People aren’t discriminated against because they’re lazy (more blaming language there), and you come off as ignorant and smug to say so.

It is possible to acknowledge the uneven playing field and still not give up. Including the blind man who “earned his place,” in your words–the same man who would point out this uneven playing field when it comes to opportunity and access for blind people. But I guess that makes him a woe-is-me victim who is lazy and cries discrimination, expecting the world to hand him something.

My point still stands–those obstacles are faced overwhelmingly by women and minorities. White men don’t have to use their energy to figure out another way to deal with institutional discrimination. They don’t have to deal with that crap on top of everything else. Pointing this out does not make those of us who acknowledge it lazy, or woe-is-me victims.

And those of us who are successful can take pride in our achievements and recognize the achievements of others while also recognizing that the playing field is uneven.

One can suffer discrimination and muscle through it. This would be a person who chooses not to see herself as a victim. “That guy’s a jerk, guess I’ll just have to figure another way through this situation.”

Your own examples show that people will overcome hurdles if they choose to overcome them. The person who falls down and refuses to get back up, who claims “discrimination” and then thinks the world owes him/her something has chosen his/her path, and will get exactly what what they have earned. Similarly, the blind man who is successful in spite of his blindness has earned his place.

As for what one should do in a discriminatory situation, I say dust off the resume, find another job, and leave as soon as you have that job. When your exit interviewer asks why you left, you can calmly explain that your contributions will be more appreciated at the other company. Sorry you don’t like the fact that employers see you as a “troublemaker.” Perhaps you should funnel your energy into your own business where you can hire people you want. But, I suspect you’ll soon run into the same problem your employer had.

Life’s full of these fun little ironic moments.

Second, the negotiating backlash happened with friends and family in a variety of fields and companies. Not every company does it, but that doesn’t mean that is just one or two bad apples. Often you leave to find the same attitudes elsewhere. Many times, people aren’t even aware that they’ve got a bias, but when you point it out, well–take a look at the comments here for the defensiveness. Yeah, that’ll go over well in a company. The behavior double-standard is illegal, but it can also be VERY difficult to prove.

Third, the one thing that we’re often told is that bringing a lawsuit or notifying the “proper” authorities will come back to haunt the person who complains. These folks are seen as troublemakers. Word gets around and they get blackballed. Just suck it up, stop being a victim, and move on. And if you do file a lawsuit, expect serious backlash. See: Dov Charney at American Apparel, Lilly Ledbetter, etc. As Sharon pointed out, lawsuits aren’t exactly easy to file or see through, and discrimination lawsuits, contrary to popular belief, are rarely successful.

And here’s the thing: given that this DOES happen to women, minorities, gays, and the disabled far more than it does to heterosexual White men, it’s a bit silly for people to ignore this sort of thing and wag their fingers at us for supposedly being lazy and for victim-tripping. Given the fact that this is far less likely to happen to White men, it’s disingenuous to act as though the playing field is level and that any mention of this sort of thing is just so much whining. Why is it such a horrible crime to point out that the playing field is not level?

@Joanna–no one here is saying that you cannot make it if you’re female or a minority. You should reread what we’ve written. We have been saying that there are obstacles that a White man does not have to contend with. Also, I worked with a man who was blind and quite successful in his field–but he would be the first to tell you that there are serious hurdles for the blind in employment. Pointing that out does not mean he thinks that blind people cannot make it, just that they have more burdens to shoulder than those who can see.

@Battra–Seriously? I should just take you and Doug’s assertions as gospel truth. You obviously know so much more about our experiences than we do, despite many of us on this thread having lived what we’re talking about.

And if anyone quits in protest over discriminatory treatment, what kind of reference do you think the previous employer is going to provide? Where do you think they will find another job?

The rest of us live in the real world, and reality is, the deck is often stacked against us. And yes, it makes financial success much more difficult.

And if she quits in protest, what kind of reference do you think the previous employer is gong to provide?

The rest of us live in the real world, and reality is, the deck is often stacked against us.

That’s the strongest argument I see for the fact that your attitude can determine your outcome, although I’m certain that some will point out her gender.

Very interesting debate. I think the one thing we must be careful of is assuming that some people *cannot* make it because of their geneder/race, etc. That attitude, while it may stem from good intentions, can be the very mentality that tells women and minorities that they are *not* able to “make it” in this society.

Also, someone earlier commented that folks with disabilities had a legitimate reason for “not making it”. Read Touch the Top of the World by Erik Weihenmayer. He’s the only blind man to have summited Everest (as well as the other 6 of the 7 Summits). Fascinating story of determination and someone who is constantly told that he can’t and that he’s a fool and dangerous for trying, but who believes his inner voice rather than the critics.

Thanks for the attempt to keep the discussion on track, Trent. ;-)

Jim

But you drove the issue back to personal finance, reminding us that these small solutions can be used in most situations towards reaching financial goals, which made the lessons from the book far more useful.

I think the next time you point the finger on prejudice you might want to see where the other three are pointing.