My mom encouraged list making too – actually I made/make tons of lists, but rarely gift lists for myself. It’s probably partly my personality, and (being the oldest of 4) I think the younger children in a family often become more spoiled. I’ve noticed it in many other families too. At least in some cases, it seems that the older kids probably get more time from their younger, more energetic, less affluent parents. Then the younger kids get more material goods to make up for the lack of time their parents have for them individually, and/or they’re benefiting from the additional income most people have later in life.

I couldn’t agree more. Those of us who are “walking wounded” as one counselor of mine called it, perpetually suffer in a state of spiritual lacking, even when surrounded by material excess or people who claim to care about us. Once trust is shattered by abuse or neglect, it is very difficult to fully enjoy or engage in life. We wallow in addictions to soothe or distract ourselves and are paralyzed or deficient in many social interactions, particularly the playground politics of the workplace.

I know there are ways to “get better” but I sometimes wonder if there is any way to “get well.” My experience with psychiatry has been somewhat helpful, but I’m still unable to work and plagued by self-doubt. Maybe I could overcome the painful lessons of my youth if I could afford counseling from more competent, compassionate providers. I’ve read plenty of self-help stuff, but it always seems like there’s a hole in my soul that can’t be filled.

If you don’t feel that way, consider yourself lucky and try to have a little tolerance and sympathy for the “nuts” you know. My friend and I have a saying, “Unhappy childhoods last a lifetime.” I’d give anything to have the confidence I see in others, the social skills, resilience and natural ease of mental health. Maybe someday…and I do appreciate that I’m better off now than I was a few years ago.

Sorry to rant, but Damester started it! ;-) Psychology and money are deeply interwoven, often in ways we fail to perceive. I’m no longer going into debt to buy useless collectibles, but my house is still somewhat cluttered. My struggle with overspending and avoidance of responsibility is far from over. Reading this blog certainly helps me try to stay on track.

On a semi side note- how’s the running going? Which 5k are you looking to run? I wish you well on it!

And with reference to birthday presents – he gets mountains of toys at his parties (not from us!). He is allowed to open all the presents from their wrappings but is then only allowed to open and play with one present per week (so they last a good few months). That way he really plays with the gifts and appreciates them individually rather than becoming overwhelmed. And he loves Fridays because when he gets home he gets a “new” toy.

But it’s never good to get caught up in wanting something SOOOOOOO much that it dominates your life, regardless of whether you’re capable of getting it or not. That level of attachment is problematic.

To my mind, this whole wanting/desiring, it all goes back to how you feel about yourself. The healthiest and most well-balanced folks who are financially careful/prudent/frugal tend to be folks who have very strong self-esteem; come from very close families and who place little to no value on “stuff.” They have shared experiences and lots of good memories and plenty of people who love them and show it. They don’t look to stuff as a replacement for that love, which, I think, some of us do at times.

it doesn’t mean these folks don’t like or appreciate some good things (books, food, etc.) but they don’t let their wants and desires become needs when it interferes with living a debt-free life.

On the other hand, if you look carefully and deeply, many, if not most, folks who had debt problems from an early adult age are those who have had poor families and/or very intensely difficult financial situations. But what really influenced their behavior and choices was not the lack of money (because in fact, many of us growing up didn’t really understand how poor we were because we weren’t all pining away for stuff and feeling bad cause we didn’t have it), but a lack of love, affection, emotional connection and yes, a feeling of safety and security that your family either gives you, or doesn’t.

I didn’t have a lot of stuff as the young daughter of a single working mother, but I didn’t think much about it. But one year, when I was around 10, my mother had to sell everything in our apartment, including those few toys I had.

We were then homeless for a short period before moving in with an aunt (an experience that was far worse than being homeless)and it was after all of this that I realized something was really wrong.

You’d think that this background would make me a security-conscious person, working as a drone in a “steady” job. I may have started out that way (and I worked multiple jobs from high school through my early 30s, and then again in my 40s till now.)but of course, I then saw in business that there is no security or guarantees.

The real issue of course was not the poverty. But the fact that my mother was someone incapable of giving of herself, to me or anyone else. The real poverty was emotional and it never really ends. No matter that as adult one has people we love and trust and who love and trust us. Without a solid foundation of love and caring, your view of life and what you want/desire/need are always skewed. The lack of self esteem screws you up in so many ways…it’s not even about how much you spend, but how it affects your confidence in getting and keeping work and your earning power.

And if you look carefully at those who spend wildly and out of control, you’ll probably find someone in a lot of pain, who is trying to compensate by buying stuff to make themselves feel better. But it’s never about the money or the stuff, really.

i do think that my love of certain kinds of stuff (my thing is books and food) comes from that deep sense of lack and the knowing that your stuff could be gone in a moment. (Something I live in fear of, due to fire, etc.)

I ran the gamut in childhood, partially because my mother was the opposite of her parents for quite awhile. Where they saved, invested and were relatively quiet financially, after their deaths she blew through the inheritance in the craziest way possible! I’m going to write a book someday, I swear. :-) Any rate, she was definitely taught about money, but my grandparents were also old-fashioned and still strict because she lived with them well into her 30′s. There was definitely a large chunk of sheer rebellion involved. Thankfully she was responsible to me, so I wasn’t harmed. Unfortunately, I grew up with a healthy habit of ‘I deserve it’ because that’s what I learned from her.

In retrospect my childhood was spent living very frugally, but I was unaware. It is only in my adulthood that I realize what my parents did ..growing their own food, canning, preserving, raising chickens, sewing, etc. was a lifestyle that was frugal and necessary for our survival. I thought it was normal and had fun doing it with my parents, they made it seem fun. They also were the type of parents that invested their time in us.

As a result, myself and one of my two brothers both live similiarly. We cook, we garden, we fix what is broken, we don’t long for the newest and shiniest thing! We drive older model “paid for” vehicles, etc. Our only debt is our home.

Unfortunately, I can’t say the same thing for my middle brother. He is in debt up to his eyeballs…..again. He has already filed bankruptcy once. He and his wife have run through two inheritances, but threw away most of the “things” they inherited rather than use them or donate them. Clothes, furniture, watches and jewelry, I cringe thinking about it.

Wish we could clearly define what made this one sibling react so differently to the exact same environment. Then we might find a way to cure those that “need” that “newest” thing so much the are willing to risk theirs and their childrens financial and emotional futures.

I actually think it is a fun thing to do and I intend to do it with my kids not to prove any points, but to let them realize how quickly taste change and how not getting a toy one year really doesn’t matter. (essentially a 30 day rule for gifts :) )

And of course, my wife and I will be doing the save, give, spend method and making them earn their allowance, etc. But for those that want to let their kids have fun making lists, then let them have fun laughing at the ridiculous things they used to want?

One factor, though, is that the economic world when we were kids was different than it is now. What was smart then may not be as smart now.

That said, I need to think harder about the kinds of bad decisions I have made and take responsibility. Maybe the world is different now, but I need to focus on what I can control.

There’s a certain sense of independence that comes from buying what ever we want when ever we want it. Maybe it comes from thinking “I want it, I deserve it, I’ll buy it”. Maybe it’s an unconcious rebellion against a youth of doing without where we try to “make up for it” by giving ourselves what we did without (Michael Jackson trying to recreate the childhood he didn’t have is an outstanding example of this).

Real indendence comes from letting go of it and the control it has over you, but the transition comes at different times and with varying degrees of difficulty. Count yourself blessed if you’ve made the transition at all. A lot of people never do.

BTW, we’re doing something similar with out kids in regard to birthdays and Christmas. What’s amazing is how the lists change so dramatically over time. By December we’re usually glad we didn’t buy what was on the list in September!

On the other hand, I have fabulous memories of getting together for big family events on BDs and xmas, the anticipation of making lists for gifts, and I still really look forward to those events today. I also still make lists and ask for them from my family: how else do I know exactly what they want? I love being able to provide what they truly would enjoy. I cringe at the thought of receiving something I don’t really want, both from the clutter of it in my house and the waste of money for the person who bought it.

I think lists and channeling gifts to certain events can be very useful and sure didn’t make me into a greedy consumer!

One book you may want to check out from the library is “The Berenstain Bears Get the Gimmes”. After the kids pester the mother for stuff on TV one too many times, and after she notices that they don’t play with the toys or eat the food she does get for them, she lets them have their way. For one week only. She tells them she will buy the first three things the kids see on Saturday morning TV–but they have to eat the new cereal until it runs out, and they have to play with the new toys for a certain time period. The cereal is a bust, and the toys aren’t much better. The kids go back to eating their usual cereal after the new cereal is gone, and revert back to their favorite toys when the new toys start to break.

All in all, I think your 3yo might enjoy the book, and it’s one that I’ve re-read many times with both my children. Thanks for all you do.

As an adult, I find I get into this mindset not so much with stuff like books, clothes, etc., but with home-improvement projects. We saved up a lot of money to replace the ragged and allergy-laden carpet in my daughter’s room with laminate floor, and I’m so glad we did. (That was, in effect, her “Christmas” one year – the total redo of her room – and she loved it.) But now I look at other flooring in the house and it’s, “Eww, that looks horrible.” And it goes on and on.

I could hit the lottery (that I don’t play, haha) and spend a million on renovations and still find something “new” or “different” I wanted, I’m sure. Thanks for reminding me to appreciate what I am lucky to have – a nice, large house and a great family in it!