Thus, anyone that chooses not to have a child is themselves a candle in the wind. They’re relying on others to continue the flame.

I also think that a portion of our disagreement may have something to do with the word “many”.

What constitutes “many”? Is it 1,000 women in North America? 10,000? 100,000? A specified percentage of the female population? Or, more specifically, a percentage of the religious female population?

Whatever we consider to be “many”, it is clearly true that in society as a whole the birth rate has dropped significantly over the past 50 years. Some of this reflects the availability of birth control, some reflects the trend toward later marriage (and having children later in marriage), some reflects the number of women who are in the workforce and wish to remain there, some of it reflects infertility issues, some of it reflects conformity with changing cultural norms, and so on.

It is fairly rare to see a non-religious family with more than 4 or 5 children nowadays (since the average number of children is currently below replacement), although this would not have been unusual in the 1950s. So, for the most part, when we talk about large families we’re talking about families that belong to some religious movement.

Yes, I did not address some of your comments regarding quality of parenting, etc. I did not address areas where I agreed with you because we are both already writing quite enough, discussing those areas where we disagree.

And I’m not being defensive when I say that a sentence like “Really? If they had the absolute choice, as in having available birth control, as in not being forced into things by their religion or culture?” comes across as being a putdown of women who choose to have large families in general, and religious women in particular.

Your implication was clearly that, if they had access to birth control their actions would change. Or, if they weren’t being “forced” they would change.

I pointed out that religious women in developed countries do have access to birth control and many (that word again) use it, at least for short periods of time. I didn’t mention it previously but I recently had a discussion with a highly religious woman, the wife of a rabbi and educator, who talked very frankly with me about young, religious women and birth control. These were not her opinions, rather the knowledge she had gained by counseling these women.

Also, I find it interesting that you “question from opinion” but that you expect me to provide “numbers and research” rather than my opinion and anecdotal evidence (which you refer to and then say that I “talk ‘facts’” but am really only giving my opinion).

Well, of course I’m only giving my opinion. I’m not defending a thesis here. I *never* mentioned the word “facts” in that comment. It was clear that I was providing a very small amount of anecdotal evidence that contradicted your assertions.

I could write much more. I don’t have hard numbers in front of me but I don’t need them. I know many women personally and can see, as their older children have gotten married over the past decade, just how large a family those spouses come from. I’ve walked down the street in Crown Heights and Boro Park. I’ve seen the families walking down the streets. I see the wedding albums of friends of friends and can see the sheer numbers of children in those pictures. And this is just one tiny fragment of the religious population of North America. There are so many, other, larger groups out there.

How much study have I done of children from large families? I’m not formally studying the topic at all. However, I can tell you that the children who grew up with my adult children are getting married in their 20s and are having children early in their marriages. The ones who have been married for close to 10 years average 4 to 5 children at this point. A friend with 11 children, 5 of whom are married, has 14 grandchildren. Obviously, these kids haven’t all been turned off of large families.

And, as a mother of 4 children (3 of whom are grown), I have 3 grandchildren and one on the way although none of the adult kids are particularly religious.

There are other aspects of your comment I could address but I think we’ve taken up a lot of space here already.

I’ll just conclude with my observation that you have clearly shifted your argument in this latest comment.

Contrast the quote I listed earlier (beginning “Really?”) with your later comment:
“As I believe that everyone, including the most devout, considers many things beyond religious doctrine in making a decision about having children.”

And then: “It isn’t about the numbers, but about the quality of parenting, etc.”

While the quality of parenting is criticallly important, we were specifically talking about numbers (and religion). As I said, there’s no need for us to discuss the areas where we agree.

And you overlook my words when I indicated that I felt that some women did indeed feel this way, but I disagreed with the use of the word “many” (by the way, you are most certainly entitled to your opinion and anecdotal stories, but I’d like to see numbers and research to support some of your contentions here.I speak from opinion and make that clear. I question from opinion. You talk “facts” but are really only giving YOUR opinion, to which you are entitled.) The issue is one of numbers, quantity. (You admit that some feel oppressed. I say that there are many who do feel pressured and would never admit it. This does not negate the fact that many choose more children and are happy.)

I am not “anti-religion” / I am someone who hopes that every human being questions their choices based on their own abilities and resources and beliefs. Not what they have only been brought up to believe. (FYI: I was raised as a catholic and kept that faith for many decades. And then, after studying other religions, chose to leave it and embrace what was, for me, a more positive way to live in the world. My friends represent all major religions and many of them, interestingly, have changed from one religion to another over the years based on studying and exploring other religions. They remain devout and I deeply respect their choices, which are THEIR choices. )

I am neither ignorant nor unfair in having an opinion. You however are judging me. I have not judged either you or whatever religion you are associated with. This is NOT a religious issue to me, by the way. As I believe that everyone, including the most devout, considers many things beyond religious doctrine in making a decision about having children.

I actually give people far more credit for their choices than you seem to want to acknowledge.

If you’re feeling defensive, as you clearly are, it has nothing to do with what I’ve said. That’s coming from within you.

By the way, I happen to care enough about children that I believe that having one is perhaps the greatest gift. My concern is that every child is not welcomed into the world and provided for as if they were the real gift they are. For all the wonderful parents in the world, and there are many, there are still far too many who have far too many children who they do not raise appropriately–for the child. That is opinion. I would rather people had fewer children and loved them more. Again, opinion.

PS: How much study have you done of the children of these parents who have so many? I’d be very interested to hear what they think. Nobody ever seems to bring that up.

It isn’t about the numbers, but about the quality of parenting, etc.

You’ve missed that point repeatedly.

Johanna has pretty well hit the nail on the head regarding the motivation of the majority of the people in the developing world for having large families, even though they may not be able to provide for them adequately. If you don’t have adult children who will take care of you as you age you will die. There are no safety nets other than having sufficient family members.

As for IRG’s response to me:
“To the person who pointed out that there are “many many” women elsewhere in the world who still want lots of kids: Really? If they had the absolute choice, as in having available birth control, as in not being forced into things by their religion or culture?

Sorry, do not believe that. Some, maybe, but not “many” ”

You don’t have to believe me. You don’t have to believe the world is round or that man landed on the moon either. But your belief seems to me to be based on your limited knowledge of religious communities of all kinds, an underestimation of the sheer number of religiously observant families throughout the world and your apparent distate for organized religion (based on your comments that imply women are coerced or brainwashed into a subservient position due to religion).

While I freely admit that there are some women who feel oppressed by their religion you cannot brush off those of us who are educated and find deep meaning in our beliefs and practices. I can think of at least a dozen women I know offhand (within my own religious niche) who have between 7 and 13 children. I also know many younger women who will almost certainly have that many over the years, although they have only 3 or 4 now.

These are not women who are ignorant of birth control. Indeed, some women do use birth control for limited periods of time to space their children, but still ultimately will have many. Nor are they women who are uninterested in raising their children or in participating in the world.

Many of them work in education, as preschool, elementary or high school teachers. I know a woman who is a high school principal and another who has a pediatric orthopedic therapy practice. I’ve also known women who are pediatric nurses or who teach English as a Second Language.

They love children. They love working with them and teaching them and coming up with creative things to do with them, both their students and their children.

Do not put these women (and that includes ME) down. That is ignorant and unfair of you. Go and spend some time in religious communities of various kinds and then you will be in a better position to form an opinion as to what religious women really think and want.

Consider also that people in the poorest parts of the world don’t have Social Security, Medicare, disability or long-term care insurance, 401(k)’s or Roth IRAs, low-cost index funds, or often even a place to safely store money over the long term. If they become too old or sick to work and don’t have younger, healthier family members to take care of them, what are they going to do? Combine that with the high child mortality rate, and maybe they have to have 5-6 children to ensure that at least 1-2 of them will make it to adulthood with their health intact. Presto – there’s your large families.

First, we’re not desperate. We’re merely voicing an opinion, which differs from Trent’s. If he’s entitled to his opinion, so are we.

I personally don’t care how many kids anyone else has…as long as they can provide for them, as needed, on the emotional, financial and physical levels required. This is not always the case. I care about how the kids are raised and if they get what they need on so many levels, including parenting that is positive and appropriate.

I would prefer that these children were all “planned” for and wanted. This, sadly, is NOT the case with many instances. This is where I have a problem. Life is tough enough but to have been born to parents who either don’t want you and/or can’t care for you? Please. This is about the welfare of children, not somebody’s right to “breed.” (because frankly in some instances that’s all some people are doing. They are not PARENTING, which is very different from merely having a child. Huge difference).

The number of children literally tossed away, abused, and even killed because some people should NEVER have had children is unacceptable.

Again, that’s what I care about. Not how many kids families who can afford to have them have.

I read a very poignant book a few years ago by a man who was one of 10 kids in a family with births starting in the 40s and going thru the 60s. It was heartbreaking to hear how painful his growing up was. His parents simply were not present for the kids, who were essentially raised by each other, as is often the case.

again, the point of most of these comments that disagreed with Trent, was NOT the number of kids but that those who chose to not have (or COULD NOT HAVE…) children could make no real contribution to change the world. That’s poor logic to say the least.

To the person who pointed out that there are “many many” women elsewhere in the world who still want lots of kids: Really? If they had the absolute choice, as in having available birth control, as in not being forced into things by their religion or culture?

Sorry, do not believe that. Some, maybe, but not “many” Especially in countries where people can’t feed their kids and they die early (oh, maybe you mean they have many children to “replace” those they lost?)

Finally, having kids cannot be equated with automatically making a contribution or making a difference in the world–other than adding quite literally to a “body count”. Some parents raise monsters. Some people brought serial killers into the world. Gee, what a contribution. Sorry for the extremes here but I simply cannot accept that the sheer ability to produce a child means you’ve made the world better.

That’s not quite how it works.

It’s never about numbers, it’s about the quality of how you raise/parent your children. To those who struggle each day to be a conscious, aware, parent, I say: Thank you. THIS benefits us all. Raising responsible humans to be good citizens? Very important and thank you.

To those of you who have all those kids and who have abused them, mentally, emotionally or physically, shame on you. Whether it’s one or ten or more.

To those who have children for ANY other reason than a personal commitment, which means there are no guarantees of anything, please, THINK about what you are doing.

“All either state outright or imply that God blesses you if you successfully steal from your opponents…”

I’d be interested in the text within Christianity that affirms this.

“…and all make the subordination of women a primary component of their religion (or is that racket??)”

In Christianity… definitely racket. And by Christianity, I’m refering to what Jesus taught, not what the church has come to believe. Jesus was a huge proponent of equality, and that is seen throughout the New Testament.

YouTube has plenty of videos on how to use the iTouch for Skype, and eBay has economical headphone/mics.

Four predominant middle-Eastern religions exist–Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Satanism. All either state outright or imply that God blesses you if you successfully steal from your opponents, and all make the subordination of women a primary component of their religion (or is that racket??)

I’m an American, so I don’t participate in, or empower, any of these. All are tax-and-spenders, all are a drain on American incomes. Even the ones who practice charitable activities do it by forgiving the thieves seventy-times-seven and then doling out crumbs to such victims as survive their individual or social depredations. No, thanks.

Wow. I already took most of what Trent writes with a grain of salt for various reasons, including the whiff of smug that comes across every now and then but this-well, I have to say I’m disappointed but not really surprised. To my mind this is either a case the myopic attitude of youth or someone who will use any rationale to justify, but more importantly, beatify their choices.
In either event, I think my days of believing I can gain any useful information from this site are at an end. I’m sure I’ll still enjoy the insightful and interesting comments-this is about the best bunch I’ve run across yet-I’m just done with the ‘headliner’.

to #67 Shevy @ 1:09 “Neither have we yet run out of oil/petroleum products”
Apparently, the oil wars our country is currently fighting, going on 8 years, are not enough of a warning sign for you.

I am absolutely speechless about this article…I took it to mean that the only way for ‘smart and driven’ people to make a positive contribution to the world is to have children. To say this is diminishing to those of us who are child free is an understatement.

And to address this comment:
‘The people are mostly Norwegian and Swedish, which means lots of calm and friendly temperaments.’
I grew up in Northern Minnesota, and I know for a fact that this kind of sweeping racist statement is based on Trent’s beliefs and not my experience.

Trent has a right to his beliefs, as I do mine. However, I can take action in another way, by choosing not to read this blog anymore. This will be the last time I visit this site. I wish Trent the best of luck.

This is my view:
A couple who have many children can provide only so much individual attention for every child.

On the other hand, a couple who have decided to have only one child, invest all their love, parenting and grooming of morals and principles on that one child, who grows to be a moral, responsible and ethical adult, benefitting the world.

Personally, I’m the youngest of 8, but 5 of us (myself included) have chosen not to have kids. The other 3 siblings have 1, 2, and 9(!) kids, so they made up for the rest of us in any case…

As for the golf question from Barbie–try GolfNow.com if your SIL is in an area it covers. I get decent tee time prices there all the time.

I also have found a few courses here (in the Seattle area) that have mailing lists, and they’ll mail out online coupons at various times.

Certainly, there are twilight and early-bird specials at most courses, and golfing during the week is practically always cheaper than the weekends!

You stated that, “Most of the major religions believe that they are the only way to God/heaven.” Which I find to be a curious assertion.

By my count (admittedly as an outsider to most of these religions) the vast majority of world religions are inclusive or tolerant of other religions. In fact, the absolute exclusive religions seem mostly to be the so-called Abrahamic religions. Of these, Christianity and Islam are exclusive (and of course Judaism). Though not even all of the Abrahamic religions are exclisive; Bahai is not.

But once outside of the Abrahamic religions, we find that tolerance or inclusiveness of other religions is the norm. Here is an incomplete list of world religions that are not even remotely as exclusive as the Christian faith…

Hinduism
Jainism
Buddhism
Chinese, Korean, and Japanese Folk religions
The Norse mythology
Egyptian religion
The Greek pantheon religion
etc.

At any rate, I just thought that your comment was odd, considering that from a historical perspective exclusive religions are a relatively new thing, in my opinion. I feel like we are skewed culturally in the west to only think about the very large Abrahamic religions. And of course, they are large because they tend to “push out” the other religions of a culture, due to their nonacceptance of other beliefs. This is, oddly enough, not all that dissimilar to the idea that one should breed an army of children that will agree with your positions in life (however, misled that idea itself is), “pushing out” the other ideas in the culture in favor of yours.

“I take all these doom and gloom predictions with a large grain of salt, simply because (by and large) the negative results have not occurred.”

It’s this type of short-sighted, head-in-the-sand ignorance that will truly doom our planet.

Why do people seem to think that if the “bad things” don’t happen all at once, then it’s not a problem? If they happen slowly, is it not still a problem? Just because you haven’t noticed them doesn’t mean they’re not real.

Katrina was real, and a direct result of climate change.

Diseases are spreading faster and further than ever, due to the increase in population density. This is not “doom and gloom,” these are things that have ALREADY HAPPENED. H1N1 Swine flu, bird flu, mad cow, SARS – these are actual, global pandemics that are real, live threats TODAY – not some nebulous hypothetical date in the future.

The oceans ARE rising. Don’t believe me? Ask the people of the Maldives, who are at this very moment saving up the cash to buy some land on higher ground and move their ENTIRE COUNTRY. Again, not a fictional, scary fairy tale designed to frighten people. This is an actual, measurable consequence of our wasteful, self-centered focus.

It’s time we wake up and realize there’s a problem, and it’s not going to solve itself. If you believe in a God, then you have to believe He gave us intelligence and free will in order to solve these problems for ourselves, not just blindly put our faith in His hands to save us from our own gluttony.