I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. Sears has stores in Arizona so they knew what they were offering.

That said, I have also done exchanges with LL Bean where I ordered a product, and after living with it for a while, realised that the use I had envisaged did not materialise. In that instance, I returned new-in-all-but-name products, which were also courteously exchanged for more appropriate items. But since they were virtually unused (and my understanding is that LL Bean employees can then buy these at a steep discount), I did not feel bad about it.

I do not know.

Is it ethical to offer a lifetime guarantee for something that suffers normal wear and tear?

If I see a lifetime guarantee, I *expect* the product to last a lifetime. If it is a piece of clothing, the paintwork on my car (which translates to the lifetime of the car), knives, tools, it does not matter. If the company does not intend to honour it, or, if the product is not built to last that long, then it is unethical to offer a lifetime guarantee.

Lenore, are you sure you were just shampooing the carpet and not trying to suck up solids from the toilet overflow? I’m pretty sure shampooers weren’t meant to pick up solids like that, did you use a shop vac first?
Now, as for the rest of you–now that you’ve seen some of the ‘awful’ things poor people have to do to get by–let’s hear your confessions of past transgressions or maybe we’ve inspired you to save a buck here in the future by doing something a little ‘crooked.’ Gigabaud at live dot com

On the other time any time you have to misrepresent the situation (even by omission) you’re crossing a line. If a warranty only applies to the original purchaser, and you get it used and try to claim on the warranty – tough cookies. If you are unsatisfied with an item after a year, but the store only has a 90 day return policy, you should have bought at a store with a better return policy.

I once returned an LL Bean backpack because there was stuff flaking off the inside. They told me that the warranty is satisfaction, not lasting forever, but the rest of the backpack was in great shape so I persisted, and they did indeed replace it. That’s how lifetime satisfaction warranties work.

We traded the defective one for the same make and model because that was the only option. The brand and barcode have to match up for a return at just about any store. Aside from the fact that the microwave quit working, we liked it and knew it might simply be a lemon. As it turned out, the newer microwave has worked for well over a year, so I think we made the right decision.

Why didn’t we contact the manufacturer? We knew we’d have to pay to ship and return it, and that would have cost almost as much as we’d paid for it in the first place. Not to mention we would have been without a microwave (which is how we cook almost every meal) for several weeks.

Since I’m in confession mode, I’ll tell you the worst thing we’ve ever done. The house we live in had carpet in the bathroom when we bought it. One day the toilet overflowed and made a disgusting, smelly mess. We couldn’t afford to rip out the carpet and lay vinyl flooring, and we couldn’t endure stepping on dirty wet towels for weeks to come. We went to Walmart to rent a Rug Doctor and were appalled by the price. So we bought a carpet shampooer and used it to clean up the wet mess. The shampooer kept switching off while we were using it, so it must have had some kind of defect. Either way we would have returned it because we couldn’t afford $100 for an appliance we would (hopefully) only use once. I hope Walmart sent it back to the manufacturer for reconditioning and a thorough cleaning. That reminds me I need to get moving on rehabbing our bathroom before it happens again. Why does every house repair end up costing hundreds or thousands of dollars?

You’re both right, though. Treating other people well is no guarantee that they’ll treat you well. But to me, that’s part of the point. If I try to get “justice” by screwing them over or screwing over other people, that just means I’ve stooped to their level. Actually, it means I’m worse because I know how it feels to be the victim so I should know better.

That’s it for me, though. I’m taking Johanna’s advice now and leaving the conversation.

The rule isn’t perfect, but it’s sure better than the alternative.

That’s even worse, because it means always thinking of the other guy, when at the base of one’s values ought to be one’s self.

By that rule, if someone robs me, I should not have him arrested, since were I to rob someone, I would want to not be arrested. I should give all my money to other people, since I want them to give all their money to me.

The problem is that that version of the rule doesn’t have a benefit clause. It doesn’t say, “Do unto others as you would have them do and then they will do the same.” It says, “Give till it hurts and then give more.”

I realize the wording has changed throughout the centuries, but the principle is the same in many eras and cultures. Treat people as we want to be treated (not necessarily how they actually treat us).

So if we don’t want to be cheated and mistreated, why do it to other people? I can understand the impulse, but sooner or later we have to draw the line or it never ends.

“Let’s see if I’m following you. Somebody makes
an error so it’s up to you to benefit–as long as your ethical “scorecard” is still balanced. Somebody adds a fee you don’t like so it’s a license to steal?”

It’s not a question of if I don’t like it. I don’t like any fees; my ideal would be getting everything for free. Some fees I think are unfair, unethical.

“Do unto others…let’s start there.

And… two wrongs do not make a right. Trite, but still true. Errors or things you are not happy with are not justifications for theft. PERIOD.”

I am doing unto others, if the doing is considered in context. I am making retaliatory ethics violations, which are going to be made against me whether I would have them or not.

And I think that two wrongs do make a right. Someone steals from me, I steal from him, it’s justice. Only figuring that out in detail is apparantly inefficient, so I just subrogate. The alternative is to be one of those people who call 911 when they don’t get enough ketchup.

“Why not take some responsibility on YOUR end for your dissatisfaction. . . Take some responsibility and try to get satisfaction in an adult and professional manner.”

Because it’s *not* my responsibility. Asking me to make it so is asking for a handout. And I’m still not clear as to why. My goal is to get the most value for me out of a transaction or a series of such. A major value for me is not shouldering any more responsibility than I absolutely must. I don’t care if my satisfaction is ‘adult’ (by whose standards?); I care about its existence and its measure.

What’s weird is how many people equate stealing, lying, and cheating the system with “frugality.”

Frugal is baking from scratch, weather-proofing your home, shopping around. It is not getting back at companies by stealing from them.

@Paul: I understand your frustration with the never-ending irritations of modern life. However, if I drive like a jackass because someone else cut me off, how is that fair to the drivers around me? Similarly, if I steal from the Holiday Inn because the airport lost my luggage, how is that fair to the Holiday Inn, or to the other peole who stay there and will have higher rates?

A good question to ask yourself is, “Am I being passive aggressive?” If so, man up and communicate directly.

@Henry: I’m pretty sure you’re joking. Or a sociopath.

I think its the heart of the matter. When I would look at the article of clothing and feel that Land’s End gave me a great value for a great sweater, I would smile and happily buy another one, thankful for an excellent company that I support in a win-win situation.

The iron-clad guarantee is a big part of their business model. They’re making a statement about their products–”Buy a sweater from us and you will have a good sweater for the rest of your life.” There’s nothing in the least immoral about taking them up on that promise.

Let’s see if I’m following you. Somebody makes an error so it’s up to you to benefit–as long as your ethical “scorecard” is still balanced. Somebody adds a fee you don’t like so it’s a license to steal?

Why should you NOT take an opportunity to put one over on someone? Let me count the reasons why not.

Do unto others…let’s start there.

And… two wrongs do not make a right. Trite, but still true. Errors or things you are not happy with are not justifications for theft. PERIOD.

Why not take some responsibility on YOUR end for your dissatisfaction and make a suggestion of how a company/someone might “compensate” you for a fee you don’t like (better yet, don’t stay somewhere with fees you don’t like) in a legit fashion? Speak up, politely. Don’t act out.

I’m sorry, but all you folks who are unhappy and use that to justify questionable (I’m being tactful) behavior…seriously. Take some responsibility and try to get satisfaction in an adult and professional manner. And if you can’t, go online, share your trouble with a merchant on complaint sites and also send a letter to the president of the company. Be polite and professional. You might be surprised at the results.

You must feel pretty powerless to resort to stealing as a solution to any problem. (And by the way, don’t any of you have a business where people / customers steal from you? How do you like it?)

There are times in life when people do make mistakes that greatly inconvenience us, make us mad and mess up our lives. The answer is to try to alert someone to how their behavior has affected you and then have a teaching moment–and get some satisfaction. Yea, it won’t work with people who don’t care (airlines, banks). And sometimes you will go way over their head and they will be VERY unhappy but you gave them a chance to make things better. Some times, that’s life and you gotta just suck it up. (No, this does not apply to life-threatening circumstances. But let’s say a hospital made a serious error in your treatment. What are you going to steal from them and how will that improve your health or make it better for others in the future?)

Taking advantage of the very companies that probably deliver the best quality products (they last ten years? Wow.)and great service. Is that the way to encourage businesses to do the right thing?

And you wonder why companies don’t believe a lot of the complaints they get? (Oh, yes, there are people who never buy anything without returning it, claiming defects when none exist for a discount, etc. Work in retail anywhere for any period of time and you’ll see incredible stuff.)

It’s disheartening to read some of the comments here. I don’t equate being frugal with being somebody looking to put something over on others for their benefit. Just because they can. Ugh.