Money Merge Accounts: Are They A Good Deal For Home Borrowers?

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Yesterday, a reader wrote to me and asked about money merge accounts and whether or not they are a good deal for homebuyers. Of course, this means that I popped open my trusty spreadsheet and started doing some calculations.

Hold on, what is a “money merge account”? A “money merge account” is a special home equity line of credit placed on your home. Every time you receive a paycheck, the whole thing goes straight towards first paying off any balance in your money merge account, then the entire remainder of your check goes towards paying the interest, then the principal of your home loan. Let’s say you had a mortgage with $1,500 payments and you set up a money merge account. Each month, you received $3,500 in paychecks, but only spent $1,200 (and sometimes less). That means that automatically $2,300 (and sometimes more) goes towards that mortgage each month – an extra $800 towards principal every single month. This means a 30 year mortgage would be paid off in 13 years and two months.

Here’s the catch: to get into this program, it’ll cost you. I examined several money merge account options online and the rates varied from $1,800 to $4,500, with the average coming in around $3,000 to get started. This is added to the principal of the loan.

In other words, the fee adds about $20 to each minimum payment over the life of a loan, and in the accelerated calculation means that you’ll make almost exactly another month’s worth of payment – it will take you 13 years and 3 months to pay it off.

On the other hand, you could theoretically do it yourself. Start using a high-interest checking account (like Electric Orange, which gives you 4% interest) and then send every cent you can to the mortgage payment. Going back to the earlier scenario, if you always kept $1,000 in there as a buffer, got paid your $3,500 at the start of the month, spent $1,200 throughout the month, then sent off everything down to $1,000 at the end of the month to your lender, you would pay an average of $813 extra each month (that extra $13 comes from interest on the checking account). Given those numbers, you could pay off the mortgage in just barely over 13 years (the final payment is a tiny one).

Although that seems like a better financial deal than a money merge account (and it is), it has one huge risk: you. As we’ve discussed before, individuals are a huge risk because of their desire to spend money that’s “just sitting there” in an account. It wouldn’t take much at all over thirteen years for you to take money that’s already yours and spend it on something else.

One psychological advantage of a money merge account is that it encourages frugality. Why? It puts you in a situation where every dollar you spend basically goes onto your mortgage principal. See that bag of chips at the store? Is it worth it going onto your mortgage? You can use your own home as a psychological tool to be thrifty – and thus get out of the mortgage sooner.

If you have a lot of financial discipline, doing it yourself is a better deal than a money merge account. However, if you’re prone to spending extra at all and have found yourself saying, “Well, I have plenty extra right now, so I can afford it,” then a money merge account is probably the fastest way available to you to pay off your mortgage.

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2,439 thoughts on “Money Merge Accounts: Are They A Good Deal For Home Borrowers?

  1. My cousin does the bi-monthly payment thing, where you pay your mortgage every two-weeks. He had an initial cost of about 300 and pays a monthly fee, the cost overall is ok. The point is that he is the type of person that ALWAYS succumbs to the human nature effect, where if he has money lying around he will spend it. He is not discipline enough to manually make the extra payment. This system works perfectly for him.

    The thing is when I try to recommend this type of system to people that I know cant control their spending they always say, “Why pay when I can do it myself.” These are the very people that will always say, “I’ll save more next month,” but of course they dont, yet they keep repeating how at anytime if they really wanted to, they can pay the mortgage off quicker.

    Systems like these, not only minimize the “YOU” factor, it makes everything more organize and simple, because its automatic.

  2. I’d be wary of this type of money merge account, simply because your monthly payments don’t get put off when you over pay. Sure, you’ll blow through your mortgage in 13 years, but if at any time in those 13 years, you are out of a job, you won’t have a savings account to fall back on since all your money was “saved” in house equity.

    You don’t want to be 8 years into prepaying your mortgage, and then lose a job, and have the house foreclosed on, that’s a horrible situation, which could have been solved by not giving complete power over to the mortgage company. Just pay extra by yourself, and you can eliminate this giant threat to your home.

  3. Chris…

    Do not worry… with the true money merge account you do not NEED a savings account… you have the equity line of credit if you need a financial cushion. In fact… with this program you will never be late on a bill again… and will have perfect credit (provided you do it right).

    That is the whole point of this program. It is easy, and safe. Also… even if you can only qualify for a small equity line at the start… as you pay down your mortgage… you can have the bank raise it. Within a year you should easily have enough of a credit limit on the equity line to cover a 6 month (maybe longer) job loss situation. If that happens you pull money out of the equity line… then put a small amount back to satisfy the interest-only payment option (make sure you get that feature).

  4. Chris,

    Another positive point for the money merge account is that although you will save money by putting everything into your mortgage (by paying it off quicker), there is no harm in keeping a comfortable amount behind you in a savings account or CD (a safe investment) in case of such a situation as losing your job. Also, as Benjamin stated, you will have your line of credit to fall back on which can be adjusted as you gain equity in your home. This program tracks your unique earnings and spending habits and helps you keep your line of credit at a level that will minimize the amount of interest charged. That means that just because you have access to a certain amount, doesn’t mean you have to max it out. The MMA actually helps you keep the line of credit at a more manageable level so that your income can offset the balance without leading you into more debt.

    Hope this helps.
    Shari

  5. Could someone please show the full HELOC spreadsheet of the example the MMA program uses in the video. They show the mortgage on the left hand side and the HELOC on the right hand side with about 10 lines of a spreadsheet. Could this be shown for the full 10.4 years it takes to pay off the 200,000 mortgage @ 6% =$1,199 per month. Just show the variables used in this example over and over again for the full 10.4 years and show the mortgage being paid off and the HELOC being paid off at the same time. If the example never carried this out for 10.4 years but just wanted to show you 10 lines only, could someone who is smart enought to do this on their own spreadsheet please do so and post so we can all see this carried out until the end just like you can see your amortization on your original mortgage carried all the way out to the end. I would post this example myself all the way through if I was smart enough to know how to do it and show it to everyone. Thanks.

  6. This is the corporate website that displays the video mentioned by TIM.

    http://www.xmission.com/%7Eu1st/mma100.html

    This MMA program does more than what most spreadsheets will show, it takes into account all your financial variables that take place in your daily life. It gives you the best scenario for paying off your mortgage and usually other significant debts all in the same time frame. You become mortgage free and free of the debts included in the program at the same time and like mentioned above giving you a safety cushion all the while in case of emergency situations.

  7. If you look at the video very very closely you will see that one of the first steps is to send a $3500 check to the folks who are pushing the program. They really gloss over this, but the bottom line is tht you start right out another $3500 in debt.
    Although MMA’s can be a useful tool, you can do it yourself dropping $3500 on a MLM scam.

  8. You writing illustrates a little bit of confusion about the Money Merge Account. E-mail me and I will be more than happy to shed some light for you.

    Regards,

    JAM

  9. You can say “It costs $3500″, or you can say “What is my return for my $3500 and is it worth the money to ME?”. You can do the same thing with many other products. For example, I can push-mow my 2 acre yard, or I can buy a riding mower. How much is my time worth? That question is different for everyone. Some people enjoy push-mowing their yard. Some people enjoy crunching numbers in their spare time. Some people invest in the gym, some walk or run in their spare time. After all, you can do it yourself. You can hire a contractor to remodel your kitchen, or you can do it yourself. You can join Weight Watchers or diet on your own. But if you don’t actually do it on your own, then there are products out there to help you. It all depends on what works for you. This program is not a one size fits all. We all choose to spend our money on different things, that is our freedom and our right. If it’s not worth the money to you, don’t buy it.
    In response to Jay about the first step being to send them a check. Well, isn’t that the first step in most anything you buy? If you buy a car, they want their money before you drive it off the lot. If you buy groceries, you pay before you leave the store. If you buy a house, etc. See where I’m going with this. We are all consumers and we all have choices. Some people buy name brand, some buy generic. Neither choice is wrong. The choices we make are individual and what is good for one may not be good for another.
    I realize this is getting long so I’ll finish up. Yes, I have purchased this program. No, I am not selling it (that is my choice). For my situation, this product is a wonderful investment. Do your homework and make your own choice. But be sure you have all the facts and not just opinions. This product does work, but is it right for you?

  10. This article is good, honest, relevant, and fair … a credit to good journalism.

    However, it does miss one very important point… with the MMA you would still need to exercise ‘exactly the same amount of financial discipline’ and control that you would need to exercise if you instead simply managed the pre-payment on your own.

    If someone needs help managing their finances (psychological, arithmetical, conceptual, or otherwise) then Quicken 07′only costs $30 … and is actually a much more sophisticated financial management and budgeting tool.

    When you dig deeper into the MMA cash flows and apply some rigorous graduate level financial analysis… the ROI, IRR, and even NPV on the $3,500 upfront investment cost you pay today… it shows this is not the best available comparative investment of $3,500 for most homeowners.

    Most all folks would simply be better off paying that $3,500 toward pre-payment of their mortgage or other debts instead.

    The vast majority of the interest saving come ONLY from the homeowner’s pre-payment of the debt/mortgage from their own monthly income. That’s just simple obvious common sense…

    Don’t loose sight of the forest by focusing only on one particular knotty tree.

  11. Anyone come up with an Excel spreadsheet yet that ties in your monthly budget with an amortization table? I have to assume we can all do the same thing here and save ourtselves $3500. I don’t think, as claimed by the people hocking the MMA, that there are some fancy algorithms at work here. It’s an overpayment mortgage am table, (available for free on the internet), linked to a budget spreadsheet. No? However, if the MMA could magically reach into my wallet, steal that extra $20 before I blew it on Keno, and scold me for being a moron… now THAT would be worth the $3500.

  12. All one has to do is go to http://WWW.DONNELLMORTGAGE.NET or any other website with financial calculators and they can run the numbers for themselves with as detailed of a breakdown as you want. All this seems to me is a HELOC being sold as a rolls royce. Simply use your head and pay down the 1st or 2nd with any extra income that you have left over at the end of the month. Also, a bi-weekly payment plan is not a bad idea to do on top of adding more money monthly above and beyond the minimums.

  13. As mentioned previously, if you are a financially disciplined individual, a Money Merge Account, or a One Account, makes a lot of sense. And you don’t need to pay any bank or company any money. All it takes is a home equity loan. Some people feel like they must have a savings account for that “Just in case” moment, but as Ben mentioned on March 4th, as you pay off the loan, you are aggressively “saving” money on your line of credit. If you lose your job, simply withdraw money from your line to satisfy your needs.

    This is a great idea; just don’t pay anything for it!

  14. I can agree with Ron above, in part. It still does take financial discipline to use the MMA Program, but you still miss a certain point:
    The MMA Program actually encourages that discipline, by showing people what happens when they make their decisions. They get to see the effects of their money, and how that affects their mortgage. Thos who claim that the same can be done with an Excel Spreadsheet simply don’t get it: this was designed for those who need the help. For people like me who spend 2 minutes a month balancing their checkbook, and then throw it into a sock drawer.
    The actual fact is: you can do it on your own…just not as well as with the MMA Program.
    If in doubt, then consider http://www.thejubileeproject.org/on_my_own.html .

    Do your research, take your time and know what your getting into. I personally saved over $109K and shaved 22 years off my mortgage, BUT…it was right for me, for my goals, desires and as Ron said above: my discipline level.

    I don’t think most people do (or will) give this Program enough credit…especially when they constantly refuse to include the ongoing personal support until the payoff of their mortgage and the written guarantee. Those in itself was enough for me to invest my $3500.

  15. Remember that this MMA is not an automated system; rather it is only a reminder to do something which you still need to do 100% for yourself. Controlling your unnecessary spending and instead paying down your mortgage and your other debts is something that you still have to do yourself. There is no magic or miracle… just self discipline and common sense. Spending $3,500 will not buy that for you, you still have to do it yourself.

    (As Noted Above) The same, and actually greater, interest savings can be accomplished by pre-paying principal on your own. For more information or to get a better understanding of the math / calculations and of what’s really going on behind the scenes with many ‘equity accelerators’, like the money merge account, check out the below links for more Free independent information.

    http://www.integramortgages.com/FinancialVOODOO

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_merge_account

    http://forum.brokeroutpost.com/loans/forum/2/95315.htm

  16. United First Financial has said time and time again that if a client is truly disciplined enough to apply towards principal on their primary mortgage a set dollar amount of money each month; regardless of unforeseen financial situations that may and do occur in everyday life, then that client would experience a comparable performance on their own as they would with MMA.

    However, what United First Financial has found as a company is that the MMA is a tool not a cure. Money is money, finance is finance. MMA has the ability to look at so many variables at one time which is typically beyond the capacity of the average consumer. As a model example in which the client can consistently apply $600 a month toward their principal, is good in theory but not so much so in practical application. Where the client would be set on $600.00 a month, the MMA software, looking at the big picture, would take very small amounts of money into consideration that are not included by the client in this example to produce large amounts of additional savings. MMA also has the ability to allow the customer to see how these seemingly small amounts of money will produce huge savings. The addition of $10-$50 a month will drastically alter the performance of the product.

    The converse is also true. If a client has a particularly poor month financially, in their program they would not be able to send any additional funds that month to the mortgage, but MMA viewing the long run would still prompt the client to send additional funds. It would accomplish this by “automatically” adjusting the funds transfer dollar amount and interval.

    The clients that are currently on MMA that have had similar initial responses or sceptisisms to MMA are experiencing performance from the product that they never counted on. Our average client across the board is performing a minimum of 20% better than the initial guaranteed numbers United First Financial supplied them at the onset; one year later. They do not, can and will not say that a client can not do something similar on their own. What they do say is that once a client is on the product; the product under promises and over delivers.

    I have friends and clients on this product and NO ONE has EVER been disappointed or felt they were overcharged! In fact it’s quite the opposite. They love the simplicity of this very complex program AND have peace of mind they’ve never felt before with Customer Service just a phone call away.

    I know someone will now write desparaging remarks on what I’ve written. Go ahead. I will continue to share the message of hope that so many are finding with the MMA. It’s my ministry to a hurting world.

  17. Why anyone would PAY someone to help them do what they can do themselves is beyond me. Also, the people pushing this program are just MONEY lovers who are no better than snake oil salespeople and will do anything to get you to give them a penny, a dollar, or as much as they can sucker out of you. People WAKE up, learn how to use your money to your advantage and don’t GIVE anyone else a dime. Those of you who have already done so I hope it works well for you. I’ll check back in 5 years.

  18. You know everyone here has Alot of good stuff to say! and it is all their OWN opinions! But America is a country where money is a serious thing! I agree the MMA program is a very good investment for those people that are unable to dish out the xtra $50-600.00 or more money, a month, most people I know live pay check to pay check, and there is not anything left at the end of the month. I really liked what Shari said back on March 23rd, if it is good for you then do it, if not then don’t! I first heard of the MMA program and my first thought was how can I help people do this for themselves! Not how much $ can I make! Not everyone out in the world is out to sucker $ off of someone, There really are people who still care about others!! And if I had to spend 3500$ to SAVE $152,534.49 off my mortgage, (which mind you stays IN my pocket over the last 14yrs of which I would have been paying to the bank) I would do it in a heartbeat! (which I did)that could pay for part of the colleges I will be paying for my 4 kids! SO check it out and see if it is for you if not, then it is not but let the people make their decisions for themsleves. And seriously on the other note there really IS some good Shark oil (never heard of snake oil) out there in the market place. (I’m 39yrs old)& I lived in pain for 16 yrs and no longer suffer from it BECAUSE of this shark oil!
    Best of luck to all of you in your OWN decisions!
    Take care
    SK

  19. Ethical Person,

    you said: “Why would anyone PAY someone to help them do what they can do themselves is beyone me”.

    Let me ask you some questions… Do you change the oil in your car? Do you cut your own hair? Do you go out to a restaurant where a cook or a chef makes your food? Do you have a bank or an investment advisor invest your $$ for you, say mutual funds, reits, etc..??

    I am willing to bet you answer YES to all those questions!! Why, you can do all the above yourself??

    Let me ask you another question… If people can do this program or concept themselves, then how many of them are curretnly doing so? I dont know anyone personally or professional that is, and i am in the mortgage business (you’d think i’d know maybe one or two)

    Is it true that similar results can be accomplished if someone has the time, and abacus and knowledge of spreadsheets (that’s actually 2% of the population). You still won’t beat the software, maybe you could come close though…

    To me, time is $$! My business partner and I spent $3500 and apllied this towards an invesment property we have, and so far it’s we are very satisfied. Once that’s paid off I plan on using it for additional properties in the future. I am now offering this as an extra feature to homebuyers and those existing clients that want to purchase or re-fi.

  20. I just googled “amortization schedule” clicked on a link and put my mortgage information into the calculator. Then I put in additional $700 a month and it knocked off 15 years of my loan. I will call my mortgage company tomorrow and add that to my autopay and I will pay off my loan in half the time.

    If anyone would like the above instructions mailed to you please send me 3000$.

  21. Ethical ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
    do you hire a painter? do you Hire a plumber?
    an electrician? an auto mechanic with a little book know how you could do these things too.
    like others have said Some have the skills,the TIME and patience to work this out. I have five kids each has their own schedule. each play sports at different times.
    I don’t have the extra hours to do this on my own time. MMA takes minutes.

  22. Wish I had an extra $700 a month to add to my mortgage but, like most people, I don’t. Also, once you send that $$ in, it’s gone. With MMA you still have access to it through your heloc. And, as Jack said, it takes minutes. I have kids who are very involved also and when I do get a free moment, I have other things to do, like reading a book with my 6 yr old. Like I said before, there are many things we can do on our own, but we have to choose which ones. I don’t have time to do EVERYTHING on my own so I make an appointment to get my hair cut and I have a riding mower for my grass. That gives me the time to watch my kids play sports, and help them with their homework and clean my house (unfortunately I have to do this one on my own *sigh*). Good luck to all in whatever decisions you make. For me, this is one less worry and well worth MY money. I’m sure there are others that feel the same, just as there are those who don’t. Happy Easter everyone.

  23. Life is good. We live with free will. All of us have learned from our parents and grandparents how to make money and/or loose money. There are very few of us that were taught how to build wealth and/or loose wealth. After being in the mortgage industry. both commercially and residential, helping people get into homes with a great passion. This “system” will guide us in the financial path that that works for us. It gives us the options. If we could hire a “personal” fincial planner over the course of our next 3 home purchases for a measely $3,500 – Sign us up! Yes, I’ve purchased the program, and an agent. My goal is to give us an option. Thanks for having this forum.

  24. Once again could someone show a spreadsheet for the HELOC from the MMA website example where the client has a 200,000 mortgage at 6% so the payment is 1,199 per month. The client has 5,000 a month income with 2,801 per month expenses and has the 1,199 mortgage payment leaving 1,000 in discretionary income per month. The HELOC example on the right side of the spreadsheet shows only 10 lines of the product at work. Could this exact spreadsheet payoff be shown for the entire 10.4 years on the HELOC side (not just 10 lines) with no extra variables included, just the 5,000 income, 2,801 expenses, 1,199 mortgage and the 1,000 discretionary income. If I could do this, I would post the full spreadsheet myself, but I cannot figure it out. Is there a timing mechanism involved in the equation to keep the HELOC as low as possible and how does that work? Also, how much discretionary income was used to pay off the mortgage in the example. Sorry I’m not good at math and cannot figure this out. Was a HELOC not a great and super product before the MMA program came out? Why did we not hear so much about a this great product called the HELOC before the MMA program was produced? I had only heard of a Home Equity Loan prior to all this. Thanks for the help and answers to my questions.

  25. I am so glad I found this blog. Some great information and discussion. We have been approached to buy into a $3500 money merge account program. Probably the same one that is being discussed here. I have to admit that we are not very disiplined with our money management and I am not sure that we would follow the MMA tool’s advice either.

    We are more interested in increasing equity over the next 3-5 years, than we are in paying off the mortgage in 14-15, because we hope to upgrade to a better home by then. How can we determine whether the $3500 is better spent on a tool or on paying down the mortgage principle by $3500 now?

    Another factor which we have not heard addressed is the effect of reducing our biggest tax deduction. Does the savings in interest payments each year greatly outweigh the tax savings?

  26. What I have not seen discussed here is the alure of the available credit on the credit line. It is no different than a credit card, except that presumably the interest rate is less. While I admire all of you who have the discipline to tap this line exclusively when told to do so by the MMA program, I suggest that most Americans are not nearly so disciplined and will not be able to resist the siren call of available cash. Our economy is run on the general public’s need for immediate gratification. Again I say that I admire those of you who are able to resist such temptation.

    At the end of it all, those who buy the MMA program may well wind up oweing their mortgage and the payments on the credit line – including the $3,500 to purchase the MMA program. Taking on more debt is rarely a good way to get out of debt. If you are in a hole, quit digging.

    Good luck!

  27. Robert-that is a very good point. One of the coolest things about the MMA program is that the numbers are looking you right in the face so you see how your spending affects your payoff. I am very disciplined when it comes to my finances and we don’t carry balances/have loans so this program kicked in right away and is making a huge difference for us. But I think this will be a great tool for those who need help staying focused to not overspend. Everytime you make an entry into the system, your payoff changes so you can SEE how spending will affect it as well as the affect of earning more, or putting more into it. It has helped my dear friends to cut down on their pocket cash each week because they never thought about how much they wasted, until they saw it in black and white. Also, the program helps you to keep your credit line balance as low as possible so you don’t get yourself in more trouble. That being said, you are absolutely right that if you spend more than you make, nothing will help you. If you are always in the hole, YOU need to change your lifestyle. But that has nothing to do with how this program works. The program simply funnels your money through different avenues to make it work more effectively for you and less effectively for your creditors. As long as you have a positive cash flow, it will work. It’s not a cure-all and it doesn’t perform magic.

  28. There is a lot of good detail here that should help a lot of folks become informed and make a better financial decision for themselves.

    There have also been a number of requests for info and spreadsheets to help folks understand what’s really going on, and even how to do this themselve, or to at least understand the baseline results that they can already achieve by simply pre-paying their mortgage with the extra cash they earn every month.

    For anyone who wants more info we have been providing FREE customized excel pre-payment spreadsheets to aid you in your analysis… just follow the below link and send an email to request the spreadsheet(s). http://www.integramortgages.com/FinancialVOODOO

    If any homeowner, consumer, real estate professional or accountant is interested in more detailed information and truly analyzing these equity accelerator programs ‘particularly the Money Merge Account’ for themselves… below are some links to information that should shed a lot of light on this particular topic.

    1) http://www.integramortgages.com/FinancialVOODOO
    (FREE Mortgage Pre-payment calculators, FREE alternatives, details and opinions)

    2) http://www.mtgprofessor.com/A%20-%20Early%20Payoff/the_good_fairy_of_rapid_mortgage_payoff_is_back.htm
    (detailed analysis information & opinions from the respected Jack M. Guttentag, former Jacob Safra Professor of International Banking at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania & Yahoo Finance Contributing Author)

    3) http://www.danmelson.com/posts/1171373759.shtml
    (detailed sales tactics informatio, analysis, and opinions from an Up-Front California Real Estate & Mortgage Professional)

    4) http://forum.brokeroutpost.com/loans/forum/2/95315.htm (a very direct opinion from an attorney specializing in real estate law)

    5) http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/messageview.php?catid=52&threadid=709007&start=0 (various impressions, opinions, and info)

    6) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_merge_account

  29. Wow! Fantastic dialogue. All the sharp people on here who are paying down their mortgage on their own, congrats. But, in reality, I know 90%+ of people just go on blindly making the monthly minimum mortgage payment and think that is fine and dandy. In reality, by using the HELOC and floating that money to pay down your first mortgage, even if it takes 2 years to pay down the HELOC again..if you are using that account as your checking account you will be much farther ahead towards paying off that first than you would be otherwise and save tons in closed end interest charges. In addition, people do need a plan of attack so to speak, and our software application does it for you. Bottom line, we all pay much more than $3500 in closing costs just to get a home loan financed correct. Money down the drain right? Sure we can write off those fees, but beyond that the money is gone. With an investment in the MMA program, that $3500 goes a long way towards really helping the average Joe get ahead and a real reason to stay disciplined.

    All the best….

  30. Barbara, How much do you really get back on your tax return at the end of the year as a result of your mortgage tax write off? For me it makes the difference of about $6000. If I didn’t have a mortgage payment (2300/month) I would have $27600 dollars more in my pocket every year. $21000 of those payments would have gone to interest alone. So you see paying a little tax isn’t as bad as all the interest to the banks! And even better you could buy another home or a vacation home. Check out my website at http://www.eliminateinterest.com and you will see the equity you can build in your home in 3-5 years. There is a very informative presentation on the site. I have a link to the corporate site and an email link if you have any questions for me. This is an amazing product. One guaranteed by United First Financial because it is based on mathematics.

  31. I have this program. What I will tell you next will blow you away. To start my monthly net income is $11,166.00. My mortgage is huge at $1,110,206.00 at 6% (monthly payment $6,656.25). I really have a monthly discretionary income of $2,500, but I take that money out each month and disperse some into savings accounts others into mutual funds. So in MMA’s perspective I have a $0 discretionary income (no additional money going towards principal). I have the system for 1 year and according to the analysis they gave me when I bought the system I am exactly on tract. ***I will pay my mortgage off in 22.8 years saving $363,068.54*** Now tell me this system doesn’t work. The truth lies in using the system without using any discretionary income.

  32. Can I do This On My Own?

    Whether a question or a statement, it’s something we have addressed in podcasts, letters, online posts, articles and emails until our fingers bled.

    Ok, they didn’t actually bleed…but they got seriously sore!

    The black and white answer to ‘Can I do this on my own?’ is… yes.

    Now, you can walk away and smile to yourself as you whisper ‘I knew it’, or, you can hear the conditions of that answer…

    YES, you can do this on your own, IF you have the financial discipline and mathematical skill.

    YES, you can do this on your own, IF you have the right kind of HELOC.

    YES, you can do this on your own, IF you are willing and able to account for every penny at all times.

    YES, you can do this on your own, IF you are willing to tally all those variables and refigure your financial position EACH AND EVERY DAY.

    YES, you can do this on your own, IF you can do this day in and day out for the next 10, 12, 15, 20 years.

    YES, you can do this on your own, IF you can do this without personal support if something goes wrong or you get confused.

    At this point, we’d give you a medal if you could actually do this. Not likely, but we have met some pretty amazing and intelligent people since we started offering this opportunity to the country. So, we’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, and say you CAN do all this, because you’re SO smart and then add one more…

    YES, you can do this on your own, IF you are willing to leave TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON THE TABLE AND WALK AWAY.

    If you can, we’ll hold onto that medal for being so smart.

    Yes, you can do many things if you have the determination and discipline, which will accelerate your payoff, but is it worth it, when you have a tool in front of you that takes care of all the variables, and simply tells you when and what amount to transfer?

    What’s the REAL issue? It’s not your pride. You don’t really have anything to prove to anyone. It’s about the $3500 price tag for the Program.

    Just say it. We’ll wait.

    Consider something: Would you invest $3500 to make $40K? How about $60K, $75K or $100K? Well, know that if you attempt this on your own, the simple fact that you are human, and cannot locate all the variables day to day, that’s the kind of money you could be leaving on the table…and now you have to do all the work, by yourself.

    Make the decision that’s right for you. As for us, it was a no brainer.

  33. Here’s what I say when someone asks me “Can I do this on my own?”
    I tell them No…and you WON’T. Its that simple. And then I ask them, “have you ever kept a new years resolution for 8-11 years?” Thats what it would take to accomplish a portion of the results that are made while using the Money Merge Account. A complete and total readjustment of your lifestyle and some financial education. Do your research and don’t pass up on this opportunity.
    Wes

  34. I am doing this on my own. At the end of the month I put all money after expenses toward paying off mortgage. Don’t need a heloc-Don’t need to account for every penny every day-Don’t need any mathematical skills-Don’t need to refigure every day. I will be saving thousands of dollars. I did not even have to borrow $3500. Anybody can do this. As for me this was a no brainer.

  35. Don,
    With the MMA it puts all your discretionary money left over every month to work for you. The benefit of the MMA is that in the event that you need that money for some unexpected reason then you have it available to you because the MMA incorporates a Home Equity Line of credit as your checking account. The MMA allows you to leverage someone elses money (HELOC) to benefit yourself (pay down large portions of high closed end interest with money from low open end interest from your HELOC). Also the $3500 is not a fee. Its an investment. I invested my $3500 into the MMA and I expect a return. My return is $253,000 of interest saved on my mortgage. Let me know if you have any questions.
    Have a great day.
    Wes

  36. I wish I could do it the way Don is! I recently signed up for the program because I DO NOT want to send ALL my discretionary income to my mortgage each month. Why? Well, last month I had to pay $750 for car repairs. Summer is coming and I have day camps to pay for. If I sent all my discretionary income, I would have ZERO flexibility. Once it is gone, I can’t get it back.

    The HELOC gives me a buffer. Now I can send a good portion of my discretionary income and still have money just in case. I have to be careful. I don’t take out money from the HELOC unless it is absolutely necessary. Also, the program really does help keep you on track financially!

  37. I have accumalated savings to pay for the extra expenses.You are smart not to put all your discretionary income into your mortgage every month until you have accumalated some savings.The $3500 you paid for the program would have been a good start to a savings account
    D.M.

  38. 1) Assume a regular consumer has a 30 year fixed mortgage, obtained some time in the past 5 years, with a 5.375% interest rate.

    2) Assume this same regular consumer can obtain a 5.375% interest bearing FDIC-insured savings account at a bank.

    Here are a couple websites with links to savings account carrying rates as much as 5.25%-5.40%…

    https://bank.countrywide.com/CWBRates.aspx?tab=sl

    http://www.pickafinance.com/new/search.php?keyword=high_interest_accounts

    3) Somebody who is a proponent of these Money Merge Accounts, please explain to me how one is any better off applying their money against a mortgage or money merge account, instead of just having it deposited directly into an interest bearing savings account.

    My point is that 5.375% earned is the same as 5.375% saved, especially since the tax consequences are the same. Additionally, by keeping the funds out of your mortgage, that money remains completely liquid. Additionally, you don’t have a ‘line of credit’ on your credit report. Additionally, you have options, as you can use the money that has accumulated in your interest bearing savings account to pay down your mortgage, or just continue to let it compound.

    Whether your own money is EARNING you 5.375% interest income (compounding), or SAVING you 5.375% interest expense (compounding), the net difference is $0.

    The whole setup explained above could be setup ‘automatically’ with a combination of direct deposits and carefully planned online bill payment plan, offered by almost every bank. So, why would somebody want to pay $3500 for this service?

    G.O.

  39. G.O. My mortgage is $384,000 at 6% for 30 yrs. Now I would make as much in interest with a savings account as I was paying on my mortgage if I had $384,000 in cash to make my first deposit!! I don’t have that kind of cash. The MMA gives me the ability to pay down LARGE portions of my principle which saves me a lot of interest. If you really want to understand how it works check out the MMA video presentation at my website http://www.eliminateinterest.com

    Thanks, Wes

  40. The one thing I have not seen addressed is your other bills. From what I have seen on these MMA’s is the ability to put all your interest bearing debt into this program. How are the credit cards, second mortgages paid off in this program?

  41. Wes Put all your discretionary income in a savings account for 30 yrs.while paying off your mortgage. Then using the mma, after you pay off your mortgage put all discretionary income plus your mortgage payment into a savings account until the end of 30 yrs. using the same rate of intrest which account will have the most money?

  42. One will never convince everyone that any particular product is better or worth in this case $3500.

    Looking into this product one thing makes sense… If you currently have both a first mortgage and a HELOC, some of what is being stated would be worthwhile. Most checking accounts do not earn the amount of interest one pays on their HELOC’s. And HELOC’s interest is based upon the monthly average balance. So if one is to put all income sources into the HELOC, and use it as a checking account, and not spend more than earnings, the interest savings will effectively earn more than a standard checking account.

    Now, the product does give you a barometer at all times of what is going on with your mortgage, this is a nice tool, most people would not be inclined to calculate this, they would merrily go on and pay their bills as usual.

    Is this product worthy of a $3500 investment? The answer will depend on each persons own circumstances. If one intends to follow the plan, probably, it certainly will pay for it self, and once you own the program its yours, not like a loan that is refinanced every 5 to 7 years. The owner can apply it to all realty purchases.

    I’m considering, and so far the nay sayers have not convinced me that I’d be better off without.

  43. ‘G Money’ hit the proverbial nail on the head! … Financial analysis is about comparisons of available alternatives, in order to make an informed decision about what is the ‘most prudent’ course of action. Which choice is best? This is what every corporation and financial analyst does on a daily basis when deciding how to spend or where to invest their money.

    You must compare apples to apples as closely as you can, and then weight the remainder of the differences to determine your best course. Specifically in this case the comparison to the RISK FREE rate of return earned from FDIC insured deposits http://www.fdic.gov/ , in addition to the alternative of simply pre-paying $3,500 toward your existing mortgage debt!

  44. Don,
    Just straight cash with no interest earned figured…If I put all my discretionary money($900.00) into an account while I paid off my 30 yr mortgage I would have saved $324,000. With the use of the MMA having paid my mortgage off in 14 yrs and being able to put my whole mortgage payment into the bank for 16 years I would have accumulated $532,000($2300/mon. mort payment). Thats a huge difference.

  45. I am currently on the MMA program and I am very pleased with the results that it is providing for me. I understood and still understand that I can have similar results by doing it myself, however even though I have known this for a while I never did it. The point that needs to be stressed here is not whether you can do it on your own but WILL you do it on your own. Financial planners and mortgage consultants can lay out the best plan in the world for you but if YOU don’t follow it to the T then it won’t work. The problem here isn’t the cost of the product but the YOU….

  46. I think the point that most people here are missing is that most people in this country do not have the ability to make large lump sum payments to their mortgage. The MMA program provies the ability to these people.

    $3500 is not a fee, it’ an investment. To those out there who belive the MMA program to be a scam, please explain to me why the company hasn’t been shut down? Just because it’s an MLM opportunity doesn’t mean it’s a scam. Have any of the nay sayers ever heard of Avon? Oh… Avon is MLM so it must be some sort of scam.

    To those who feel they can do it on their own, sure you can try but you won’t save as much as you would by utilizing the MMA program.

    Bottom line is that scams don’t save people hundreds of thousands of dollars in interest, do not guarantee performance of their product and do not provide lifetime support.

    http://www.MortgageSolutionUSA.com

  47. The MMA program seems to be more of a Money Management Tool. If one uses it as prescribed it will yield the results that are guaranteed.

    Other Camps would say that paying off the home is not the way to go, and use the moneys from the home to invest. If you are willing to gamble, MMA may not be for you.

    Some people are risk adverse, and would prefer having that loan and debt paid off faster.

  48. The Cumulative effect of Small repetitive monthly pre-payments to principal… will be GREATER than the NET effect from a large lump pre-payment that was borrowed from another higher rate source of debt. Shifting debt from A to B, just to say A is lower is a shell game, especially if B costs you more.

    The fastest way to pre-pay debt(s) is to earn the income, deposit it, earn interest, and prudently pre-pay the mortgage/ debts in the most advantageous way possible. That includes things like debt consolidation to reduce the overall “blended” interest rate to achieve the Lowest Interest Cost Possible. The further you deviate from that, the worse the return will be. There is no magic way to change those fundamentals; Debt Balance(s), Overall Rate + Costs, and Income.

    Can you generate additional income from your cash accounts?… YES, you can at very least put the cash on deposit where you are being paid interest. There are many ‘risk free’ options paying more than 5% right NOW!

    Any method of debt pre-payment that you employ will save money, so long as you are reducing your total indebtedness! Lower debt balance = less interest paid. Beyond that it’s a question of which method of debt reduction is the best and most prudent. Which achieves the best results, which saves the most money, which costs the least?

    To make an analysis you need to consider not only what you will save on A, but also the costs paid on B, and the upfront costs, and the monthly or yearly costs, as well as the compounded time vale of all those cost components.

    Then you need to compare between the various available alternatives. Principally, compare the lowest risk or “risk free” options to the other more risky alternatives.

    If the ‘risk free’ return is GREATER than the other alternative Higher Risk choices… then the most prudent and best method is a clear choice!

    If something saves you money, but it actually saves less than other Free alternatives… make no mistake, even though you saved something, it really Cost You More.

    Don’t let a sales pitch, or emotional and psychological sales tactics divert you from the facts or from analyzing ALL of the available alternatives on your own. Make sure you are doing what you can to first help yourself… and ask someone whom you know, trust, and can rely on to help you. Always get a second opinion!

    All things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the most correct!

  49. I just learned about the MMA account and seems very interesting to say the least. My wife and I are terrible with money and we live on a tight budget so this sounds like a minimal investment to get things in order. But I am still somewhat skeptical. Although this thread has been extrememly helpful so far. Thanks for all the links and advice.

    Anyway, my one question is what if you already have a maxed out HELOC second mortgage? How does that effect my chances of getting into the program, if at all? Do I need to somehow combine my two mortgages first before I can start? My first is an interst only loan also. Any help is much appreciated!

    Thanks.

  50. I want to get started in the MMA program for two reasons: 1. I am a small business owner, and from time to time, will experience cashflow problems, and 2. I want to pay off my house faster taking advantage of my so called ‘larger than average’ descretionary income. Does anyone know about the financing options of this?

  51. Adam and Jared,

    Have either of you addressed these questions with the agent who introduced you to the program? That should be your first step. Your recruiting agent should be able to help you or direct you to someone locally who can help you.

    Good Luck!

  52. whats great about the mma is that it is much more beneficial than just simply adding extra discretionary income to the principal payment of the mortgage. you are subsizing this with time. when you pay in the most beneficial lump to decrease the amount of interest paid, this will pay off the mortgage much faster than simply adding your leftover income to your principal on your mortgage loan. The $3500 fee is greatly offset with the amount of savings incurred and doesn’t come directly out of pocket. it is basically streched throughout the payoff period and utilized immediatly in the program. A simple $35000 in savings will result in a 1000% return on investment and most customers are seeing at least $100,000 to $150,000 minimum in savings. i cant think of one other investment that is pretty much risk free that i can utilize the banks money to get multiple thousands percent return on investment. i think the MMA can help anyone that has a mortgage and can qualify for a HELOC and will change the entire real estate and lending market in the next few years.

  53. I do not know if this program MMA for $3,500 works or not. The one thing that bothers me is the sales pitch for the program. My brother is in it, and the big goal seems to be to get other “agents” under you to, in-turn sell it, and you then get “residuals” up the chain of agents. Sounds like the MLM (pyramid)days of Shaklee and Amway products. I would love for it work, but am skeptical of the money incentives of the agents. I would pay a reasonable price for a software program, but do not want to take a $3,500 chance.

  54. The big issue with the skeptics seems to be the $3,500 activation fee. Since the average homeowner is scheduled to pay-off their home in a time frame of 8-11 years, the activation fee comes out to under $1 a day. The same people that argue that they could “do it themselves” and save $3,500 probably spend $4 a day for a Starbuck’s coffee and eat at least one fast food meal a day at $5+.

    The average effective interest rate for an MMA client is 2%. There is not one nay-sayer that if given the opportunity to refinance their existing mortgage to 2% and pay $3,500 in closing costs wouldn’t do it. FYI, only 1 percent of the population is “doing it themselves.”

    The MMA program works with 0 or negative discretionary income for all those that make the extra principal payments directly to the bank.

    Also, your local Real Estate and Mortgage Broker has agents that they recruited as well. That doesn’t make them an MLM.

  55. One more thing. What difference does it make how much commission an agent makes? You bought a car and someone got paid to sell it. You bought your home and someone got paid to sell it. You got your mortgage and someone got paid to write it.

    Do you realize how many millions (or billions) of dollars in advertising is spent to get you to buy everyday products. Did you realize that you pay for it in the cost of the product?

  56. “Douglas” above is factually incorrect, and is also improperly comparing and analyzing financial figures… what’s he trying to sell?

    The proper Return On Investment from this schema is NOT calculated based on the total interest that MAY be saved, but rather, from the net advantage (if any) as compared to the true “zero risk” alternative… especially in this case as the same (or superior) results can be accomplished without spending $3,500.

    A true and honest comparison yields DRASTICALLY Different analytical results.

  57. For “Ron”:The interest saved projection is based on the comparison of the existing mortgage under the regular amortization schedule.

    In every analysis I do for a prospective client, I start with 0 discretionary income in the performa, but compare their stated discretionary with an amortization calculator that computes extra payments. In most cases, with zero discretionary income, the MMA program is comparable to the extra diresct payments. When using their discretionary income in the performa, the MMA is faster than the same payment sent directly to the bank. When we pay off as much debt as possible up front (car, credit cards, etc.) the MMA accelerates the mortgage by several years over direct extra principal payments.

    If you think that you can due the same thing without the MMA software, good luck to you. Statistics show that people already don’t do it.

    As far as “zero risk,” there is a money back guarantee that the program will work. Most are 20% ahead of the projections.

  58. Ron,

    I wonder what your incentive is to dedicate so much space on your mortgage company website to slander equity acceleration products, not to mention the time blogging all over the web with your misinformation. Could it be that you make so much money off of refinancing your clients every 2-5 years. I also noticed your company is in Florida where there is some of the highest defaults coming out of the option-ARMs and NegAms in the nation. I am curious if you would open up your books to show just how many of those you sold in the last few years.

  59. I agree with Bryan. What difference does it make what commission the agents get? A refinance costs a comparable amount as the MMA program and people do it repeatedly. With MMA you can move it with you and are not required to refi. Not to mention the commission the lenders get, or many other professions who are commission only. Insurance, realtors, car sales, etc.

    Ron…your website is totally inaccurate! You are obviously trying to sell mortgages yourself and completely not considering what’s best for the client. I’m willing to bet you get paid a commission for your work. How much do you make per sale? If you opened your mind to this concept, you could enhance your business by helping your clients. That would generate referrals and future business for you. Seems you are shooting yourself in the foot by posting such misinformation. Anyone who does their research will find the truth – and your website doesn’t have it.

  60. It seems both “Bryan” and “Shari” may have something to gain/loose by pushing this MMA idea… Interesting?

    We’re providing truthful, factual, financial opinions and analysis… and adding another valuable and legitimate point of view to this discussion (as is the very mission of this entire website http://www.thesimpledollar.com)… Self reliance and saving money! There are no strings attached, and the information is FREE to everyone.

    If they don’t like it, perhaps it’s because the truth hurts, or threatens them.

    So they resort to personal attacks, character assassination, and making baseless speculation to try to disparage us…. INSTEAD of actually discussing the facts, factual comments, and legitimate financial analysis of this mma schema.

    What do they, and others, fear from a legitimate and honest discussion of the facts, financial analysis, and the truthful numbers of this matter? Isn’t that what everyone reading this really wants to know about and understand?

    Their ‘in the gutter’ comments (and their motivations) only lend more credence to this web blog and to the honest analysis and opinions both myself and many others have regarding these ‘equity accelerator’ schemas, like the mma.

    We’re not making this stuff up…

    If any homeowner, consumer, real estate professional or accountant is interested in more detailed information and truly analyzing these equity accelerator programs ‘particularly the Money Merge Account’ for themselves… below are some links to information that should shed a lot of light on this particular topic.

    1) http://www.integramortgages.com/FinancialVOODOO
    (FREE Mortgage Pre-payment calculators, FREE alternatives, details and opinions)

    2) http://www.mtgprofessor.com/A%20-%20Early%20Payoff/the_good_fairy_of_rapid_mortgage_payoff_is_back.htm
    (detailed information & opinions from the respected Jack M. Guttentag, former Jacob Safra Professor of International Banking at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania & Yahoo Finance Contributing Author)

    3) http://activerain.com/blogsview/48018/Money-Merge-Accounts-Are (other honest opinions from a south Florida mortgage planner, even someone selling it agrees it’s NOT the best solution for most 85% of folks.)

    4) http://www.danmelson.com/posts/1171373759.shtml
    (sales tactics information, analysis, and opinions from an Up-Front California Real Estate & Mortgage Professional)

    5) http://forum.brokeroutpost.com/loans/forum/2/95315.htm (a very direct opinion from an attorney specializing in real estate law)

    We hope this information educates you, helps you achieve your financial goals, and that it helps YOU save money!

    Best wishes to everyone,

  61. Ron,

    In case you didn’t notice, I did make factual comments… and you still didn’tanswer the question of what you stand to gain and you didn’t answer the challenge of how many loan products you sold and made money on that weren’t in the best interest of the homeowner.

    I also am not promoting my individual business (or any other) or website in this blog as you have. Nor have I made any assertations that the MMA is going to benefit 100% of the population.

    Of the 15,000 UFirst agents, over half of them are Mortgage and Real Estate Professionals and Financial Planners.

    1/3 of Australian homeowners are on similar programs. 1/4 of British homeowners are as well.
    In the U.S., these programs have already saved thousands of homeowners millions of dollars of mortgage interest and have also facilitated better money management skills.

    It is interesting all of these people you have links for offering “free” advice. A number one sales lead-in is something for free to offer an “added-value” in order to get a client. All of your “free” helpful advice is nothing more than a sales tactic of your own.

    Almost all of the negative comments revolve around agents makingmoney selling the program. What about the statistic that over 2/3 of all Mortgage lenders got into their industry in the last 5 years… I’m sure it’s because they do loans for free!!!

  62. Ron,

    First, I am a client, not an agent. I am simply a homeowner who signed up for the program and am excited about what it has done for me!

    Second, of the links you have provided above, the only one I would consider worth the time to research is http://activerain.com/blogsview/48018/Money-Merge-Accounts-Are

    Third, your website claims the information is free, but one must provide their email address in order to obtain it. So what’s your ulterior motive? Not to mention that you are telling people that these accellerator programs work by sending in all of your discretionary income and that’s simply not true. Nor is it true that by using a heloc as a checking account is only robbing Peter to pay Paul as you also claim. If you have a positive cash flow then you are only funneling your cash a different way. And when you do transfer a lump sum onto your primary mortgage, you still have access to it through your heloc whereas if you send in all of your discretionary income to your primary mortgage, you have lost that cash.

    These are the facts and the reasons why I say the information you present on your website are inaccurate. I am not selling anything as I have stated and I don’t see that Bryan is giving links to his website. It seems that you are the one bashing those who are FOR the program and you are also the only one posting links for your personal gain. How much did you say your commission is for the loans you sell? And how often do you advise people to refi?

  63. Another great place to look when researching the MMA and United First Financial is at http://www.bbb.org

    This is the Better Business Bureau website and I can assure you that if this product were a scam, it would have been reported as such by now.

    I’m not saying this product will work for everyone-I’ve made this statement before. But it’s not a scam and it DOES help many homeowners. I have a problem with people who post the wrong information and call this a scam or a scheme. This product is legitimate and can make a huge difference.

  64. Another place people can look is Dun & Bradstreet and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. UFF’s Parent Company Accelerated Equity & Development has the lowest risk ratings available and have a squeeky clean record.

    Question, why would two guys, whose parents both lost their homes to foreclosure when they were kids start a mortgage company and get into the equity acceleration business… funded entirely out of their own personal wealth?

    Their companies (and themselves personally) are entirely debt-free and with several million dollars in assets entirely paid for. How many other companies can claim anything close. It seems to me that they took the biggest risk of all.

  65. For those of you who seem so against this MMA program and say you can do this on your own for the next 10-20 yrs, how many of you can look back at all of those New years resolutions that you made and can HONESTLY say you stuck with it until you got the results you were looking for? you seriously think you can stick with this on your own for that many years? And what happens if you lose your job and are out of work for 2-3 mths and have to rely on your unemployment benefits to pay allll of your bills. You think you can continue to do that on your own still? With the MMA program you can have the ability to stay WAY above the water should some unforseen thing happen to you! It is not only a tool for helping you it could also be a life preserver!
    Take care all!
    Stephanie

  66. If I am not displined enough to pay off mortgage on my own how will I be disiplined enough to follow mma?

  67. I am financial advisor for the last 15 years,also I am licenced real estate and mortgage broker for the last 5 years.I became UFF agent in January after careful evaluation and analysis of MMA concept.I really believe that MMA is a great financial tool for majority of american homeowners.All these arguments that “I can do it myself” does not hold any water.Most of the american homeowners do not have any idea how to manage their money because they have absolutly no education to do that.American system promotes consumption like no other country in the world and this creates a lot of financial problems for people.Next 10 years will be very challenging for
    the most of our homeowners because of the huge demographic change is upon us.I refer to future effect of retiring baby boomers on economic,political and social trends.It could not be a better timing for MMA than now when our national saving rate is below zero and our consumer debt at the record level.Majority of the babyboomers would not able to retire because they did not save enough and the fact that they are going to live longer would not make them happier.
    I assume that all the bashers in this forum do not represent majority of homeowners and very well off and this is probably because they are financially educated and have a lot of TIME to spare and strong fiscal discipline.I praze them.
    But please do not give other people a wrong idea.
    Let them do their own due diligence and find the facts about MMA.

  68. How is this better than a short mortgage? If you want to pay it off in ten years, why not get a ten year mortgage in the first place? MMA can only succeed in shortening your mortgage by making larger payments, which is exactly what you would do if you got a shorter mortgage from the bank.

  69. Making additional payments will reduce the lifetime of your mortgage and doing it in a structured fashion would help anybody who could use help with selfdiscipline. But don’t we miss the point that our home is an investment? Why should I worry about paying off a mortgage that costs me less than 6% interest with additional payments when I could invest those extra dollars in ways that have a much greater return (mutual funds, stocks etc)? I can average 8-10% versus 6% (ignoring taxes since it’s a wash) – shouldn’t that matter more. Has somebody done this side by side comparison?

  70. here is an example of how well it does…

    $200,000 mortgage – 30 years
    6% interest on primary
    Heloc at 10% interest
    $600 in weekly income
    $700 in semi monthly income
    $3800 total monthly income
    Payoff in 21 years
    Save $79,973.41 in interest
    Effective interest rate for primary AND heloc… 4.191%

    This is with $0 in discretionary income. Yes… ZERO.

    This is with the homeowner spending every dime they make… Every month… on something else.

    Can you do this yourself?

  71. Im am curious, how much is my2pennies going to pay in closing costs to refinance the 30yr mortgage to a 20year mortgage? Typically closing costs to refinance run 2-3%.

  72. Ralf,

    First of all, God bless you if you consistently get 8-10% with ZERO risk. Second, interest RATE (whether we’re talking dividends or finance charge) only matters when multiplied by a principal amount. A side by side comparison would only be valid if your 8-10% were on a principal balance equal to the size of your mortgage.

    Most people get a NET RETURN of 1% on all of their investments when you take into consideration the finance charges on all of their DEBTS.

    Something else, there are a lot of things having extra equity in your home does for you that cannot be detailed in a blog.

    Lastly, try sending your extra discretionary income to an investment… let alone pay your regular mortgage payment and all other bills…when your primary income source stops (i.e. illness/injury, lay-off, work stoppage, etc.) With the MMA, it is possible to not skip a beat for a significant length of time until your income returns, all without altering the forcasted payoff date.

  73. Macinac,

    Your comments show that you do not understand how the program works. A 15yr. mortgage would obviously have larger payments than a 30. If someone could afford the payments they probably would’ve gotten the 15 in the first place! A lot of new loan products came out in the last few designed to get the banks business without thinking in the best interest of the homeowner (e.g. option ARMS, Neg-ams, interest-only, etc.) The reason homeowners took these is because they wanted the benefit of living better while not truly being able to afford it. ALL DEBT PRESUMES THE FUTURE.

    The MMA program allows homeowners to keep paying their existing monthly payment while still attacking principal… without incurring refinance charges.

    By the way, I just got a client who was 4 years into a 15 and we’re going to have them paid off in 4 years… that’s 7 years early! Oh, and that’s with zero discretionary income!

  74. I am participating in this discussion because I am, as most people, interested in saving money when I can. I did submit my information to a representative for an analysis. When I got back the results it looked like I could shave 2 years off the remaining lifetime of my mortgage and would save $170 a month. Not earthshattering, but since the cost of the program was figured in, it would have saved me money. But when I looked closer I noticed that my home equity line of credit, which is fixed right now, was changed to where I would only pay interest, thus saving me the $170, but also leaving me with the entire 120k balance when the first mortgage is paid off.By the time the HELOC is paid off there is neither a savings in time nor money. Where did my “rep” go wrong? I’d be glad to forward any rep his analysis to see for yourself.
    To Bryan:
    you don’t need the same principal amount to compare the return of 2 different investments. If I have a loan at 6% and would make additional payments to save interest, my interest savings for the duration of the loan would be less than the money I could accumulate by investing these extra payments at a higher return than 6%. I appreciate your comment about risk though, because that could really be an issue with somebody getting close to retiring.
    To the experts:
    I would appreciate if somebody would at least say that paying off any 30 year mortgage making the same payments will at best pay the loan off in 14years.At 6% a 100k mortgage requires $600 for 30 years. Since the bank will get under even the most creative scenario 100k back from you, the bank will get $600 a month from you for the next 167 months (14years).Since I haven’t found a bank yet that gives interest free money, I have to assume that the claims of paying off your 30yr mortgage in 1/3 to 1/2 the time is accomplished with additional payments.
    Without additional payments a 6% 30 yr mortgage can’t even be paid off in less than 18 years, that is if the bank would give you credit for the entire year’s payments on the first day of the year and base their interest calculation on the remaining balance. This makes me question the statements I have seen on this blog.I think that’s what has turned off some people – statements that are only true under certain conditions. You probably tell me I don’t understand the program, but then tell me where you can do better than my best case scenarios. If somebody decides to respond, could you avoid the expression discretionary income in your reply.I am only interested in paying the same amout I am paying right now.
    At last, please show me where my “rep” went wrong; I really would like to save some money.

  75. Ralf – If you take out a variable rate heloc, pay all of your normal expenses out of it, deposit all of your normal income into it, the bank can only charge you interest on the average daily balance. So the more frequently you get paid, the less interest you will pay to the bank. If you have a fixed rate heloc, the bank will amortize it and only accept your payment at the end of the month. With a variable rate heloc, the bank will apply the money as soon as it receives it, thus “cancelling out” interest. The reason everyone talks about discretionary income is because the program works using your discretionary income. As you pay your bills and deposit your income, your discretionary (the positive difference between your expenses and your income) becomes excess pmts to the heloc which pays down the balance of the heloc. When the balance of the heloc reaches a certain point, the MMA will prompt you to transfer a chunk of money from your heloc to your primary mortgage as a principle only pmt thus reducing the principle balance of the primary mortgage and reducing the interest charges that will accrue in the future of the primary mortgage. You continue to pay your normal expenses and deposit your normal income to the heloc until it pays down to a certain point again and then transfer a chunk to the primary as a principle pmt again. You repeat that process until both the primary and the heloc is paid off. The program monitors your income and expenses to keep the balance of the heloc at a more manageable amt so you are not overpaying the interest on the heloc or charging it to high. As income and expenses change (which they do for everyone), the program adjusts to it so it will save you the most amount of money possible. So you don’t send in all of your extra money, you “borrow” it from your heloc and pay it down without changing any of your normal spending habits and without getting a 2nd job. Of course, the less you spend and the more you make will increase your savings. So a lot of people who get on the program will adjust their habits to the better because they see immediate results. The program will adjust with each transaction to show you how it effects the payoff of your mortgage. And it allows you to send extra pmts to the primary mortgage without losing access to that money because you can still get to it through your heloc. Many people can’t come up with chunks of money to apply extra to the principle of their first mortgage. I hope that helps.

  76. Ralf,

    There is no way of knowing if your agent made a mistake somewhere without rerunning your analysis.

    In regards to the interest/dividends comparison, I did not make a mistake.

    Your assertion is this (correct me if I am wrong):

    You have $1,000 discretionary income. You put that into an investment at 8%. That investment will make you more than the same $1,000 being applied to your mortgage and saving you, let’s say 6%.

    1. The err in that thinking is that you are comparing apples to oranges. You are paying 6% on a balance of ??? I’m in San Diego, so let’s call it $500k. Are you earning dividends at 8% on a $500k portfolio?

    Let’s look at a recent customer of mine: They have a 40 year mortgage on a 7 year Option-Arm. With ZERO discretionary income and JUST the INTEREST ONLY payment, the MMA will pay-off their home in 16 years. Less than 1/2 the time! That includes paying off four credit cards at the onset. The interest savings is over $1,000,000. If they, after 14 years (which is because they will actually make their full P&I payment) invest their mortgage payment amount plus the amount of monthly payments that they were paying on credit cards, their portfolio will be worth $3.8 million at 6% or $5.4 million at 8% after the 24 years they would have left on their mortgage. If you took $1k and added it to an account at 6% every month for 40 years, compounded monthly, your return at the end of the same 40 years is just over $2 mil.

    By the way, that example does not include discretionary income being sent to the first mortgage. So, the example of an investment portfolio is a greater return than even if they had the extra income to put into an investment instead.

    If you want to really look at this and not just banter, I will work out a way for you to contact me.

  77. Ralf,

    Have you tried contacting the agent about your analysis? Was he a UFirst agent? or was this another equity acceleration loan/product?

  78. Macinac (above) is correct.

    The intentional pre-payment of a 30 year mortgage is the core of what is being discussed here! And, it is virtually the same thing as taking a ‘shorter’ term mortgage to begin with, BUT the shorter term loan will save you even more Interest!

    IF someone chooses to pre-pay a 30 year mortgage loan, in say 12 years, then they would be better off starting with a shorter 15 or even 12 year mortgage.

    The shorter the term, the less interest paid because you are re-paying principal at a FASTER Pace. PLUS, as an additional benefit, shorter term mortgage loans have LOWER interest rates. It’s a double whammy of savings!… and a way to pay a mortgage off even faster!

    Would you rather pay 6.0% interest OR 5.625%, over the same period of time? That’s a savings of 0.375% interest per year, on the outstanding loan balance, every year, over and over! For a $200,000 loan, over 15 years, that’s an average savings of $780.37 every year = $11,705.40.

    Why would you voluntarily pay a HIGHER interest rate for a 30 year mortgage, when you intend and plan to pay the money back in only 20, 15, or 10 years? Financial Flexibility is an answer for most, tradition for others… that’s why most folks get a 30 year loan, and those are good legitimate reasons.

    BUT, if someone says well it’s because “I can’t afford a 15 year mortgage payment; it’s too big for me”… then WHY on earth would they choose to make the equivalent or even greater monthly payment via any equity accelerator, when they can’t afford it in the first place? Pre-paying by choice (after the fact) is the same thing as choosing to re-pay the loan back faster from the beginning. You would end up in the same financial situation, with a big mortgage payment, and no cash left for other expenses!

    Someone can always (wisely) have a ‘dry’ heloc just for unexpected problems or expenses, but using a heloc, or credit cards, to supplement income is a recipe for debt and disaster! Make no mistake, and don’t be mislead, choosing to pre-pay a mortgage, is virtually the same thing as choosing to take a shorter term mortgage loan to begin with. Except, that the shorter term loan would save you more money, because the interest rate is lower!

    The savings of mortgage interest comes from YOUR pre-payment/ re-payment of the principal you borrowed, with the income you earn. There’s no magic to it, just paying back the debt in the most prudent way possible. The lower your interest rate, the less interest you are charged, and the faster you can afford to pay back what you borrowed.

    It’s simple common sense… lower interest rates and paying back debts faster = SAVE YOURSELF MONEY.

    http://www.integramortgages.com/FinancialVOODOO

  79. I did and he told me that he ran the analysis using the information I provided. I am not too optimistic about a different outcome, but I will look for another agent using the long list available online.

  80. Ron,

    There you go again. It has been said time and again that this program will work for many with ZERO extra out-of-pocket payments or discretionary income. You are choosing to ignore that fact on purpose so that you can continually promote your fallacies.

    Yes, homeowners could get shorter term loans. Woulda coulds shoulda. The fact is people have longer mortgages and are now starting to look at their financial conditions and want to pay off their mortgages sooner and get debt free.

    How about the best of both worlds: I have a client in NJ that has a 15 yr mortgage. They are 4 years into it with 11 left. The only extra money they have is $300 which is presently budgeted to an outside fund. IF they were to send that to their mortgage directly, they would save an extra 2 years.— With the MMA and ZERO DISCRETIONARY income, they will payoff in 4 years. THAT IS 7 YEARS AHEAD OF NORMAL on a shorter loan to begin with and with no extra payments.

    You should be featured on “Myth Busters.” YOUR MYTH DEBUNKED!

    After a 2 wk, sabatical from this blog, you still haven’t answered the challenge of whether or not you will disclose the number of exotic loans yo uput people on in the past few years that now have them upside down. I will assume that you haven’t answered that because you would rather divert attentino to the lies that you are trying to promote about others.

  81. Here is my problem. I went to bank A for a 100k mortgage and they told me it would be $830.41 a month for principal and interest at a 6% rate for a 15 year mortgage. With that offer at hand I went to bank B who liked my charm and said I could get the 100k at no (zero; 0%)interest. I went to my calculator and divided the 100k from bank B by the $830.41, that I would have to pay for a mortgage from the bank A and that I was able to budget. I came up with 120 months or 10 years. Now, can somebody tell me how any program can pay off the principal faster than that (Bryan, you said your clients will do it in 8) without paying anything extra each month? There have to be some other variables you are not telling me about,because my calculation is a no-brainer.
    Can somebody please tell me. How does this work for the guy with one mortgage, no other loans, an average interest rate and no room for greater than his scheduled payments at the tune of cutting his pay-off time into half. I am saying: NOT POSSIBLE and I would love to be proven wrong.

  82. Addendum to my last post: The smiling face is a 8 years, in case you didn’t want to look through Bryan’s post.

  83. For the Agents or people who already using the program:
    My understanding about the software is that the equity will be wiped out in a couple of years to pay the 1st mtg (quicker if there is no left over from the income/expense). Yes, there may be some interest cxl but one will start paying back the debt in the HELOC…plus the mtg payment. Or is it only the interest payment that the lender requires? … If so, for how long? I think one need to wait for two or three years until we start paying off the debt in the HElOC account to see the result of the program. Please correct me if I am wrong.
    Daniel

  84. Bryan,

    If you actually want to have a legitimate discussion on the merits about various equity accelerators and to get some free education, feel free to contact us anytime. We stand behind our opinions and analysis 100%, as is evident from both our words and actions. There is more than enough information here for you to do that if you really want, though I believe that’s not what your true intentions are.

    The crux of the heloc equity accelerator voodoo you are promoting is truly about nothing more than pre-paying mortgage principal, and generating small amounts of ‘interest income’ from a cash account. But, the method you are selling/endorsing is intentionally hiding that fact behind the cloak of the heloc schema. In reality, the net cash flow (spending of discretionary income) is the same for someone who follows an equity accelerator program, as for someone who simply decides to pre-pay their mortgage on their own. To suggest or mislead otherwise is simply dishonest, or at best ignorant.

    As has been pointed out here and elsewhere, both of the same goals of pre-payment & earning interest income (saving interest expense) can be easily accomplished by someone on their own. That self help (doing those 2 things on their own) can save folks more money and pay their mortgage off faster, if that is truly the home owner’s financial goal once they have been properly informed.

    No one needs software to do it! …Just a little common sense, a piece of paper, and a 99 cent calculator. While it’s true that many people do not understand financial analysis, amortizations, cash flow analysis, hedging, banking, or accounting, they can still accomplish the same results on their own with a little bit of information and education. This is exactly why we are providing that educational information for FREE to anyone who is interested… so that the folks who want to can understand how to do it themselves, and save themselves money! The spreadsheet even calculates the number of months to payoff for those that feel the number or months is psychologically important.

    http://www.integramortgages.com/FinancialVOODOO

    But ‘don’t just take my word for it’…instead how about:

    Jack M. Guttentag, former Jacob Safra Professor of International Banking at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania (one of the Worlds Best Graduate Finance programs ) & Yahoo Finance Contributing Author : http://www.mtgprofessor.com/A%20-%20Early%20Payoff/the_good_fairy_of_rapid_mortgage_payoff_is_back.htm

    Robert D. Ashby, CMPS, CITRMS, an accomplished Real Estate and Mortgage blogger: http://activerain.com/blogsview/98202/Is-Paying-Off-Your http://activerain.com/blogsview/99158/With-Foreclosures-on-the http://activerain.com/blogsview/100036/Money-Merge-Accounts-Vs http://activerain.com/blogsview/48018/Money-Merge-Accounts-Are

    Steve Sushner, a Real Estate, Estate Planning, and Housing Attorney, from: http://forum.brokeroutpost.com/loans/forum/2/95315.htm

    Dan Melson, an upfront long time Southern California Real Estate, Mortgage, and Financial planning expert: http://www.danmelson.com/posts/1171373759.shtml

    Greg McBride, senior financial analyst for Bankrate.com, in the Miami Herald “McBride added that homeowners could better put their money to use in a Roth IRA or education funds, instead of funneling money into a mortgage accelerator.” Reff (Miami Herald 5/21/2007 Quick-pay mortgage system isn’t for all): http://www.miamiherald.com/breaking_business/story/113980.html

    Don Taylor, Ph.D., CFA, CFP, holds a Doctorate Degree in Finance and is an associate professor of finance at The American College, and writes the “Ask Dr. Don” column for Bankrate. He says the following, about even automatic type mortgage accelerators: They are “Not for the financially indisciplined… Of course, all borrowers already have that money available with a conventional mortgage, too — and without the cost of refinancing. A borrower would simply need the financial discipline to use all that money as an additional principal payment. …Interest savings are still available the old-fashioned way by making additional principal payments on a conventional fixed-rate mortgage.” http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/mortgages/20061102_equity_accelerator_mortgage_a1.asp

    http://www.integramortgages.com/FinancialVOODOO

  85. I own a marketing business 6 years June, my third business. I was approached with the idea of becoming an UFF agent last month by one of my clients. It was a “too good to be true” pitch coming from someone I knew so it sparked my interest. Being my age (51) and of sound mind, I don’t jump into anything without extensive research. I’ve been reading everything I can find regarding UFF and it’s product. My findings:
    UFF is a religious oriented company. The 2 founders are Mormon with real estate and brokerage history. UFFs product “Money Merge Account” apparently is derived from the “Speed Equity System” software. I cannot say which is better due to the fact Harj Gill, originator of the idea 10 years ago in Australia, has placed a “Cease and Desist” against Mortgage Free USA, distributor of the software and his product cannot be found at this time. This is the same product Mr. Gill vowed to give away to 1,000,000 mortgaged homeowners last June. That did not happen. He has promised, as late as the 22nd of this month, to place the software online as shareware by mid June. We’ll see. The same Harj Gill, which had problems with the Canadian government as CEO of AMS Homecare, Inc.
    I have compared the numbers using the Money Merge Account, Mortgage Accelerator Plus and Mortgage Eliminator. The time frame for early payoff is close to the same, within a couple of years with UFF the lowest. However, that means a couple of years of payments. The product cost is a big difference up front. UFF asks a one time $3500 for their product and the others are into a set-up and monthly fee, which varies. Over the course of the mortgage term there is no way to determine overall cost. If you refinance or purchase another home you will have to redo and spend again whereas UFF is for life and can be used with multiple homes.
    We Americans, for the most part, are monetarily undisciplined. We see it, we like it, we want it and we buy it. The repercussions of payment are in the future. Most of us are not ignorant people but ignorant in certain areas. From what I have read, along with asked and been told, mortgages fall into that category. I speak for myself there. I am a pay on time and keep the roof over your head kind of guy. This will change soon.
    I read a lot of agents defending the product and themselves. I can’t say that I blame them. I feel sure some are honest and insulted by being herded with the not so honest. Some do come off as a little hyper and even abusive. My business experience tells me that cannot go far towards gaining clientele or furthering the product. I read tons of skepticism from those, which appear to be above average intellectually regarding this matter. I don’t know them so I have to assume they are clever people. They can do this quick payoff themselves through various investments and financial planning. Most of us cannot or choose not to. Again, we are not ignorant, simply uninformed and or lazy.
    I have yet to read anything from a disgruntled client either about the cost or the service provided. If I were unhappy I would at least complain anonymously to forewarn others. The guarantee UFF offers doesn’t hurt their efforts, as it’s the only money back deal I’ve seen.
    What is a MLM? Better yet, what isn’t? Practically, everything you purchase did not originate from or produced by the person or store where you bought it. They had to buy it to sell to you. And so on up the ladder. We, the consumer are the bottom rung. I see no difference. Actually, I call it free enterprise. You know the cost up front and have a choice to purchase. It’s not like it’s cable or land- line phones where the choice is “have it or not” and at the suppliers ever increasing cost. Oh, the monopolies. Better than a MLM?
    In closing; with what I’ve learned in the past few weeks, if there was a product named “Mortgage Reduction for the Common Idiot” and it saved me loads of money, years off the end and personal time I have to think it may be for me and millions of others. Do your own research and figure what’s best for you. I’ve just about convinced myself.

  86. bravcon: Very well said. One exception, just because the founders of UFF are Mormon doesn’t make the company “religious.” The company isn’t ran by the mormon church. I am an agent and am not mormon.

    Ron: you keep using words like voodoo and schema. Not the kinds of words from an intellectual that has facts to share, but one that has an agenda. I’ve read your garbage. I am not parroting corporate lines. I have spent countless hours proving this works. I have used mortgage calculators and investment calculators and have done multiple analyses for clients comparing the alternatives.

    You list a bunch of sources that try to debunk the mortgage acceleration products including a comment from a writer from Bankrate.com in a Miami Herold article, yet there was a very positive article last year on bankrate.com from another writer.

    In any debate, you can always find people to agree with your point of view. It doesn’t mean you are right!

  87. Bryan,

    UFF is a religious oriented company.

    When making this statement I was speaking of the founders not the entire company. My apologies if I didn’t convey properly.

  88. COULD SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT % OF INTEREST SAVINGS COMES FROM THE PROGRAM AND WHAT % OF INTEREST SAVINGS COMES FROM EXTRA INCOME APPLIED TO MORTGAGE?

  89. Donl,

    You can answer the question yourself, for your particular situation… Refer to our FREE online mortgage pre-payment calculators (or any other free mortgage calculator resources). They allow you to calculate the baseline savings you can already achieve with any interest bearing checking/savings account and simple common sense mortgage pre-payment with the income you earn….

    Take a look at all of the facts and make the comparisons for yourself. Make sure to include all the upfront and monthly costs from any equity accelerator system, any upfront ‘lump sum’ principal reductions made from your current cash reserves, and then compare the results starting on the Same Dates. You will find the realities of the numbers are straight forward.

    http://www.integramortgages.com/FinancialVOODOO

  90. Donl:
    That is not a question that can be answered generically. Many of my clients are saving hundreds of thousands of dollars and 15 or more years off their loans without any extra out-of-pocket money being applied to the 1st mortgage. The Money Merge Account uses a 2nd position HELOC. Even 1st position HELOC mortgage accelerator programs fundamentally use the same principle, which is if the homeowner has any discretionary money left over at the end of the month that would otherwise be sitting in a checking account earning no interest or a savings account at a dismal 1%, that money could be working for them cancelling mortgage interest. This is often only $300 one month and $100 the next.

    While I am an agent and could refer you to videos on my website, I prefer not to do that, because I am not on this blog site to sell the program… only to present facts and dispel myths perpetuated by those with alterior motives.

    If you were use a search engine, you could find numerous agent sites with videos and you can call them to ask questions and get a free analysis that will tell you specifically the pay off date of your existing loan. That pay off is guaranteed by UFirst, by the way.

  91. Ron,

    How do you pay off a mortgage early if you don’t have any extra money to pay to the mortgage?

    All of my 1.99 calculators show that 0 paid to my mortgage doesn’t bring the balance down. My excel spreadsheets give me the same results.

    I’d love to get you in a televised debate… you would be looking for another line of work by the end of the night.

  92. Daniel,

    If you are carrying a large balance on the HELOC, the program will pay down the HELOC before attacking the 1st mortgage principal because the HELOC is at a higher interest rate and because the program is designed to get you out of debt and a high balance on the HELOC goes against that fundamental principle.

    If you need a better explanation, there are plenty of agent websites with videos and you can always call an agent to discuss your individual situation.

    When I mention an agent, I am specifically speaking about a United First Financial agent for the Money Merge Account. There are other viable equity accelerator programs that work in slightly different ways.

  93. Don Taylor, Ph.D., CFA, CFP, holds a Doctorate Degree in Finance and is a Professor of Finance at The American College, and writes the “Ask Dr. Don” column for Bankrate.

    Dr. Don Taylor explains what ALL ‘equity accelerator payments’ really are and how they actually accomplish the accelerated pre-payment:
    http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/DrDon/20061005a1.asp?prodtype=pfin and related articles.

    Holden Lewis of Bankrate.com, agreeing with Dr. Don, also warns “Don’t pay ANY Money to a third party to help you set up a [equity accelerator] mortgage payment,” in Paying for biweekly mortgage program makes no sense:
    http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/mortgages/20030206a1.asp

    Don Taylor also says the following, about even automatic type HELOC mortgage accelerators: They are “Not for the financially indisciplined… Of course, all borrowers already have that money available with a conventional mortgage, too — and without the cost of refinancing. A borrower would simply need the financial discipline to use all that money as an additional principal payment. …Interest savings are still available the old-fashioned way by making additional principal payments on a conventional fixed-rate mortgage.”
    http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/mortgages/20061102_equity_accelerator_mortgage_a1.asp

    Greg McBride, senior financial analyst for Bankrate.com, in the Miami Herald “McBride added that homeowners could better put their money to use in a Roth IRA or education funds, instead of funneling money into a mortgage accelerator.” Reff (Miami Herald 5/21/2007 Quick-pay mortgage system isn’t for all):
    http://www.miamiherald.com/breaking_business/story/113980.html

    Jack M. Guttentag, Professor of Finance Emeritus and former Jacob Safra Professor of International Banking at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania (one of the Worlds Best Graduate Finance programs ) Earlier he was Chief of the Domestic Research Division of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, on the senior staff of the National Bureau of Economic Research. Jack is also a Yahoo Finance Contributing Author.

    Professor Guttentag states, “Based on everything I know, I have considerable confidence in my main conclusion, which is that the bulk of the reduction in interest payments comes from the borrower’s savings rather than from the program mechanism. … Neither the MMA nor any of its siblings provide the means for separating the contribution of the program to interest saving from the contribution made by the income the borrower allocates to principal reduction. The reason they don’t is that they want to pretend that it is the program that generates the benefit.
    http://www.mtgprofessor.com/A%20-%20Early%20Payoff/the_good_fairy_of_rapid_mortgage_payoff_is_back.htm

    Mr. Guttentag also provides a number of FREE spreadsheet and calculators to homeowners: http://www.mtgprofessor.com/spreadsheets.htm
    http://www.mtgprofessor.com/calculators.htm

    http://www.integramortgages.com/FinancialVOODOO

  94. How do you pay off a mortgage early if you don’t have any extra money to pay to the mortgage?

    Don’t believe this has been answered yet so here goes. This only works if you get paid weekly or bi-weekly. There are 5 months out of the year where you get paid 3/5 paychecks. The MMA program treats the extra paychecks as discretionary income. This doesn’t work if you get paid monthly or semi-monthly.

    So in a sense you are making extra payments just not in a monthly way.

    –==For those that are looking into using MMA==–
    Years to pay off: 4 Years
    Total Interest Saved: $94,000
    Effective Interest Rate: 0.74%

    I also want to comment that I am using the MMA program to payoff my mortgage. Don’t feel bad if you don’t understand how the MMA programs works I had to watch the client DVD 5 times before I understood. Spending $3,500 to save $94,000. Ummm.. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to see that is an awesome deal.

    I personally don’t care about how much I’m saving in interest. I will pay off my mortgage before I’m 30 and piece of mind that the bank isn’t going to take my home if something happens to me and I can’t make the payments. If that doesn’t convince you than I don’t know what will.

    For any agent that needs a web site. I am developed a turnkey web site for anyone that’s interested. Just check out simplemma.com.

  95. this money merge account sounds too good at first, only if you want to expedite the increase in your equity for every two years, take out the equity and leverage it. AT first, well, I can put my paycheck into my line of credit, pay off all of my bills from there, then, I can have a tax write-off. On the other hand, that means, by paying my utility bills, I have to pay interest because it came out of my equity line of credit. How much do you think will end up getting?

    Why put your money on something that you cannot earn interest on? It’s great to have a line of credit, but everytime you use it, you have to pay interest. Why not put your money where you can earn interest, pull it out anytime tax free whether for emergency purposes or not. Paying off your mortgage is such a huge deception to a lot of people! There are a thousand and one ways to leverage your money. Your $3000 payment will go a long way if you invest it wisely.

    Be wise. Be diligent. Be careful…..

  96. I had an analysis done by a UFF agent. I still have 12 yrs. on a 15 yr. loan. I would pay off loan in 6.2 yrs. After that if I invested the $624.40 monthly note and the $512.50 monthly discretionary income at the end of 12 yrs. I would have $95,006 invested at 6%. If I invested the $512.50 my self at 6% after 12 yrs. I would have $111,006 invested. This is quite a differance. Maybe the UFF program don’t work with a 15 yr. loan at 4.25%.

  97. Donl / Big Don,
    I tried to present an unbiased opinion based on the extensive research I’ve done in the past weeks. This product like any other, in any field, can’t be right for everyone. Can you imagine 1 cure-all for each profession? 1 pill, 1 make of car, 1 style of house, etc…
    When you were approached by an agent and crunched the numbers afterward, and used the word “if”, I have to ask why? Is it because you are simply like millions of us doing nothing at this time?
    I must say the way you attack the program I see an ulterior motive. Since you didn’t mention any other company or program, which do you work for?

  98. Guys and Gals,

    The most common thing I hear from people is all the other things they can do that’s better than the MMA program. It just seams like they are trying to come up with excuses not to pay off their mortgage.

    All these replies aren’t about if the MMA program will benefit them. It’s about doing something that is outside the norm. You are supposed to have a mortgage. Your parents have a mortgage. So do your neighbors, friends, relatives, etc.

    I bet you that none of you have done more research on a mortgage loan then you have on the MMA program.

    You pay 1 or 2 points for the mortgage loan just so you can be in more debt. But you won’t pay $3,500 for a program that will help you pay off your mortgage. Don’t you think there is something wrong with that?

    If you can do something else besides the MMA program then more power to you. Ultimately you have to look deep inside yourself and determine if you will stick with it.

    As for me I know that wouldn’t stick to any other methods. Just like the gym membership I only go to every 3 months or all of my new year’s resolutions.

  99. bravcon

    I also researched the program for several weeks and have decided its best for me to save my $3500. sounds like you have decided to spend yours. Invest your money wisely and you don’t have to work.
    good luck

  100. I have to jump in here one more time.

    First… as to whether MMA outperforms other alternatives… there is an EASY way to know. Just have an Analysis run for your situation and see if you can beat it yourself. Simple.

    I have run the numbers with MMA against every other acceleration program I can find. MMA has beaten all of them… including using every penny of discretionary income.

    For instance…

    One client has a $270,000 mortgage and just $200 in discretionary income each month.

    If they took EVERY PENNY of that discretionary income and applied it to their mortgage… they would pay it off in 22.75 years.

    However the MMA program beat that by 6 years (6 more years of NO mortgage pyament) and another $48,000 in interest savings. They were due to pay off in 16.4 years.

    And… those are GUARANTEED results. Do other programs give you a written – money back guarantee?

    By the way… United First Financial has sold over 8000 of these programs now… and they have ZERO complaints in the Better Business Bureau.

    http://www.saltlakecity.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=22021100

    Now, could the sophisticated investor eek out an extra 1-2% by investing elsewhere and not paying off a mortgage? In a perfect world… the math there works. However the world is not perfect and that strategy is not without risk… so it is a personal decision people make based on their tolerance for risk. Many people enjoy investing in the stock market, educating themselves on investment strategies, etc. For those people there is an entertainment value there as well… so risk/reward/entertainment are all factors to be considered.

    However, when you invest in your home you invest in something you can touch, see, feel and live in. It is simple and does not require a lot of ongoing education and research. And, when the home is free and clear… you can take that mortgage payment you are NOT paying anymore and invest it any way you want, knowing that the roof over your head is secure.

    Or… you could even leverage the equity you are building in your current home along the way.

    For instance… If you run the numbers you will find that using this program you could easily have your primary residence and 4-5 rental properties free and clear at the end of 30 years… without using any new money of your own. This is with your current budget and a little positive cash flow created by the rentals.

    So if you want to build financial security in a way that is easy, and with a lot less risk… this is the best way to do it.

    Bottom line though on the software… if you think you can do it yourself…

    But ask yourself 2 simple questions…

    1) How skilled at math are you?

    2) How much do you value your time?

    Most people would have to be sure they could get within a 1-5% margin of error… compared to what the software can do (and that is a calculation based on using it for only 1 home – when it is actually transferrable at no extra cost to up to 5 homes).

    And… you have to decide to yourself what is most valuable to you. You can use this program and spend 10-20 minutes a month… or you can spend hours and hours of your time doing math… instead of spending it with those you love.

    Personal decision… but you can guess what I did. I have better things to do with my time than play around with numbers.

    So do more than 8000 other people I guess.

    You can get an Analysis here by the way… then you can have fun seeing if you can do as good a job on your own.

    http://www.u1stFinancial4u.com

  101. Donl / Bigdon,

    You didn’t answer either of the questions I asked. Are you doing anything now towards early payoff? Which UFF competitor do you work for?
    You certainly have the choice of saving the purchase price and any discretionary monies you have. Hopefully that money is earning 4-5% because your paying 120% over the full mortgage term. Any time less full term that % rate goes up.
    And your last sentence had a ring of arrogance. If, you have made the right investments and don’t have to work it sounds as if you’re independently wealthy. Most of us are not in that situation. Maybe you could offer a few hints to your choice of wise investments for those of us in the dark. Thanking you in advance for all of us.

  102. bravcon

    If you go back and read read my last 2 posts all your questions have been answered.

  103. Donl / Bigdon,

    I read your post when written and have re-read. Nowhere do you mention any other program or company. A comparison would make research. What you have written is a biased opinion, which prompted my asking, “Who do you work for?”
    As for the question, “are you presently doing anything towards early payoff?” You used words like “would” and “if” and you say “crunched the numbers after the UFF analysis” so I’m left to assume with no direct response the answer is NO. Why so evasive?
    You offer us no hints to wise investments. Again, you leave us to assume 1 of 2 things; 1- you’re writing a book and want to sell the ideas or 2- you have no real ideas of financial independence.

  104. bravcon

    I do not work for anyone.It is cheaper for me not to payoff early. the wisest investment advice I know is give the LORD 10% and save 10% and he will make you financily independant.

  105. Donl,
    Nowhere in the Bible does it say that if you tithe and save 10% that God will make anyone financially independent. There are many scripture dealing with stewardship. NOWHERE does God encourage nor condone debt!

    Your comparison about how much you’ll have invested after 12 years doesn’t make sense. Math is math. 1st, take into consideration the interest saved. 2nd, in addition to what you’re not paying the bank, if you invested that same money over the remaining time you would have had a mortgage payment, MATHEMATICALLY IT MUST come out to more than you investing the money on your own for the next 12 years.

  106. Like most people interested in the MMA program, I am researching whether it would be a good option for me. The central debate is whether it works and whether it is worth $3500 to purchase.

    Ron (earlier posts above) states you can accomplish early payoff without the $3500 program and without putting yourself in additional debt. Now I respect the sources he provides to make his point (Jack Guttenberg, Bankrate, etc…) I beleive those sources are objective and attempt to clarify the pros and cons of mortgage accelerator programs for the public.

    However Bryan and others have made strong points too. I would like to believe MMA can do what it claims, yet at the same time, I do not understand how you can possibly pay off your 1st mortgage in half the time without using any discretionary income. Who is ultimately right here?

    Like most people, I live paycheck to paycheck. After paying the monthly bills and the mortgage, there is practically nothing left. Maybe this isn’t such a good program for someone like me afterall.

  107. Bryan

    I did not say this was in the bible. I was talking about what I have done over the years and have prospered finanically. I give the LORD all the credit. MATHEMATICALLY IT DOES COME OUT.
    12 yrs left on a 15 yr. mortgage at 4.25%
    $624.00 monthly note + 512.00 discretionary income per month. multiply $1136.00 times the 5.8 yrs I save equal $96,834.
    $512.00 per month times 12 yrs. equal $109,867

  108. Many opponents of the MMA program fail to realize is the United First Financial does not argue that similar results cannot be achieved without use of the money merge account.

    Secondly, if I may be a bit undisciplined about my finances and I pay $3500 for a program I would make a safe wager that not only would I utilize the program but follow it religiously.

    For those of you who are in a financial position to apply all of your discretionary income to your mortgage without fear then more power to you. Unfortunately, most homeowners in this country live on a check to check basis. The MMA program is meant for these homeowners.

    To those who say just apply the $3500 cost of the program to your 1st mortgage and you’re ahead of the game, what if the person doesn’t have the $3500 to apply to their first mortgage to begin with?

  109. Harj Gill is the creator of the mortgage acceleration (such as that used by the MMA) in Australia and Europe. He first introduced the concept in Australia in 1995 and wrote his first book in 1997 on how to impliment his mortgage reduction concepts. At first, many financial gurus and banks laughed at his ideas. Now, after seeing how his mortgage accelerator software is saving individuals thousands of dollars, his concepts are now the most widely practiced in Australia, with several banks (including the 3rd largest bank in the world) backing his concept. After such great success in Australia and Europe, he introduced the product in the U.S. in the early 2000′s and wrote another book in 2003, titled “How to Pay Off Yoour Home Sooner” He also rolled out his “Speed Equity” software, which compliments his book. Until recently, Harj Gill has been affiliated with a company called American Mortgage Educators Inc. They are currently selling two copies of his book and two subscriptions to his online mortgage accelerator software, Speed Equity, for $59. This at one time cost over $1,000. I watched a news broadcast in Vegas a couple weeks ago that featured Mr. Gill’s concepts. This news cast also featured the MMA program. With this, I wanted to compare the two programs to see if there was any difference (other than price – $3,500 for MMA and $59 for 1 year of Speed Equity followed by $199 yearly renawal). I contacted two differnt MMA agents to have my numbers ran. They both had the same payoff of 8.8 years. This included my mortgage and all other debt. If I did not pay off my other debt w/ the HELOC, the MMA payoff was 10.2 years. I bought the $59 Speed Equity system and compared its results to MMA. With Speed Equity, my payoff was 7.5 years with all debt paid off and 7 years with just my mortgage paid off. I’m not sure why the opposite happened when I had the other debt paid off with the HELOC. With MMA, by including my other debt, I paid off everything 1.4 years earlier. With Speed Equity, the debt added 5 months to my payoff. Since I have not yet purchased MMA, I can not give any other feedback other than what my analysis showed. With Speed Equity, I find the software to be very user friendly. Basically, in my situation, after I run my HELOC balance to zero, the Speed Equity software will prompt me to inject $7,500 to my primary mortgage, this happens everytime the HELOC reaches zero.

  110. Todd,
    I find it hard to believe you bought “Speed Equity” after the news segment on KVBC unless you know Mr Gill personally. Mr Gill has had a “Cease and Desist” against Mortgagefreeusa, the distributor of his software, since 5/23/2007 the same day as the airing you mention. The America Mortgage Educators site has not been funtional since the same date. Not even Ron Borg, Mr Gill’s liason, can sell this product. He did know what was coming as he was selling not only “Speed Equity” but also the book for a combined $49.99. So tell us, how and where did you get it?
    Also, if you were so interested in Mr Gill why didn’t you wait to get the program free as he spoke of and promised repeatedly in the interview? That would be the same promise he made June 2006 to give it away to 1,000,000 mortgaged homeowners by the end of that month.

  111. After I saw the news segment, I tried to find info on Harj Gill. His website is MortgageFreeusa, but he was also affiliated with American Mortgage Educators Inc., at one time. Go to their website http://www.americanmortgageeducatorsinc.com. Trust me, after I saw the Cease and Desist headline on Mr. Gill’s website, I questioned the sales person about the desist order. I was infomred they are still selling Mr. Gills product and have greatly reduced the price (i’m assuming to get rid of inventory, but I don’t know that for sure). They will continue to sell the book and software system for $59 until June 11 (two copies). Check it out yourself! I did not want to wait because who knows how long it will take Mr. Gill to resolve his situation, especially when courts are involved.

  112. After what I told the two UFF agents, (whom did my analysis and whom I know personally) about the outcomes between MMA and Speed Equity we sat down together and ran the numers again. They were able to see the Speed Equity input screens and I was able to see the MMA analysis inputs. To be fair to the MMA software, when you input bi-weekly income, 26 pay periods/year, it only considers it to be as if you are paid semi-monthly, or 24 pay periods. I was told this is done intentionally as UFF over-delivers and under promises their results. Also, with the Speed Equity software, I am able to manipulate my expenses by having them all paid in my credit card, so the money stays in the HELOC as long as possible. I was told the MMA analysis does not do this, but the live software figures out those variables. So with that, I manipulated my income for the MMA analysis so that it represents my true monthly income and to be the same as Speed Equity. Then, I had all of my expenses seperated individually on the Speed Equity system, instead of inputting just one expense (credit card). THE RESULTS (including all other debt paid off w/ the HELOC): MMA = 7.9 years; Speed Equity 7.9 years – THE EXACT SAME. The amount of interest saved with MMA was $261,214.36. The amount of interest saved with Speed Equity was $259,973. The results changed however, when I did not include other debts to be paid off with the HELOC (just the mortgage): MMA = 8.6 years years; Speed Equity 7.4 years. We were not able to figure out why, when other debts are paid off with the HELOC, the outcomes are different. Does anybody know?

  113. So you get your house paid off. 7 years, 8 years, 13, either way. now you’ve paid a higher interest rate with the heloc, or a lower rate and done it yourself or whatever, but taken every single dollar and put it into your house. your entire income went to that. Do we let college funds come from the heloc? now we get to repay that again, how about financing a new car….heloc….how about emergency….oh right, all of that future dollar plan we really worked into our budget BEFORE we bought the house to make sure on our MMA program we’d have extra money for our principle. sorry, if we’d done that, we wouldn’t need the MMA.

    okay, heres the big one. retirement. congrats on paying off your home. you put every dollar into one asset. Ask any financial planner if ONE PRODUCT is a good portfolio…I dare you. we call that putting all of your eggs in one basket.

    now your neighbor who hasn’t finished paying off his traditional loan loses his job, can’t make his payment, or someone gets sick or ANYTHING happens and he needs to move, quick. He gets foreclosed upon, or firesells. Im sorry, but did the value of your house just go from 500K to 400K because he had to sell for 350? you just lost 100K that you worked hard to pay into your house, but was money you never had control of…

    now what. and retirement? the money we put into our house. so were gonna live on Social security? um….sell our house that we worked so hard to pay off and move somewhere else smaller. and what, keep the 200K difference to live in a smaller house to pay for half the lifestyle we were used to with no tax write-off making it worse. how long is that going to last?

    really now. you can’t consider your mortgage in a vacuum. it affects every aspect of your current and future finance.

    wake up.

  114. “To those who say just apply the $3500 cost of the program to your 1st mortgage and you’re ahead of the game, what if the person doesn’t have the $3500 to apply to their first mortgage to begin with?”

    Um. Then they can’t afford to buy the MMA software can they.

    who are you guys listening to…..oh. my. goodness.

  115. “However, when you invest in your home you invest in something you can touch, see, feel and live in. It is simple and does not require a lot of ongoing education and research. And, when the home is free and clear… you can take that mortgage payment you are NOT paying anymore and invest it any way you want, knowing that the roof over your head is secure.”

    you own the home no matter how much you owe on it. as long as you make your payment, you don’t have to ask the bank to hang up pictures or move a wall. paying principle is not investing into anything, you are reducing debt.

    “Or… you could even leverage the equity you are building in your current home along the way.”

    how can leveraging the equity and at the same time, paying every dollar to that equity make any sense.

    pay interest on that money, to borrow it back once you have and pay interest again?

  116. “G.O. My mortgage is $384,000 at 6% for 30 yrs. Now I would make as much in interest with a savings account as I was paying on my mortgage if I had $384,000 in cash to make my first deposit!! I don’t have that kind of cash. The MMA gives me the ability to pay down LARGE portions of my principle which saves me a lot of interest. If you really want to understand how it works check out the MMA video presentation at my website.”

    He is saying, instead of listening to the MMA software and paying 1000 extra to the HELOC, put that 1000 in an account at the same rate of interest. it will do the exact same thing, without having to open a heloc (which you could still do independently if you need a reserve, although i don’t recommend that), without having to pay the 3500.

    “”check out the MMA video presentation at my website”"

    that says it all to me right there.

  117. “okay, heres the big one. retirement. congrats on paying off your home. you put every dollar into one asset. Ask any financial planner if ONE PRODUCT is a good portfolio…I dare you. we call that putting all of your eggs in one basket.”

    The MMA works on your discretionary income. Discretinary income is not money that you use for investments. It’s money that would sit in your checking account.

    I use the MMA program and I still invest in my 401k and Roth IRA and stock.

    You are still in control of your money. The goal of the MMA program is to pay off your mortgage with the amount of discretionary income you have.

    If you decide to dedicate some of your discretionary income to other investments then you just tell the MMA program that your monthly expenses increased by that amount and it will still calculate your new pay off date.

  118. “”"“G.O. My mortgage is $384,000 at 6% for 30 yrs. Now I would make as much in interest with a savings account as I was paying on my mortgage if I had $384,000 in cash to make my first deposit!! I don’t have that kind of cash. The MMA gives me the ability to pay down LARGE portions of my principle which saves me a lot of interest. If you really want to understand how it works check out the MMA video presentation at my website.”

    He is saying, instead of listening to the MMA software and paying 1000 extra to the HELOC, put that 1000 in an account at the same rate of interest. it will do the exact same thing, without having to open a heloc (which you could still do independently if you need a reserve, although i don’t recommend that), without having to pay the 3500.”"”

    This is the stupidest idea I heard. Why would you do this? If you really really don’t want to pay off your mortgage and that’s fine but invest that money in the stock or mutual funds where you can earn 9 to 12 percent instead of savings account.

    Here is the math to prove this is a stupid idea. To make this simple we’ll say your mortgage payment and your discretionary income are the same.

    If your money is going out of your pocket at a rate of 6% (Your Mortgage) and you put your discretionary income in savings that earns 6%, the money the savings just sits there doing nothing. If you invested in the stock market and earn 9% then you actually earning 3%.

    Lets take this scenario.

    Lets just say that you paid off your mortgage or for whatever reason your money is not going out of your pocket anymore. Now since it’s going into you pocket you are actually making 6% by just not having to pay it. Now combine that with the stock market where you can get 9%.

  119. “I find it hard to believe you bought “Speed Equity” after the news segment on KVBC unless you know Mr Gill personally. Mr Gill has had a “Cease and Desist” against Mortgagefreeusa, the distributor of his software, since 5/23/2007 the same day as the airing you mention. The America Mortgage Educators site has not been funtional since the same date. Not even Ron Borg, Mr Gill’s liason, can sell this product. He did know what was coming as he was selling not only “Speed Equity” but also the book for a combined $49.99. So tell us, how and where did you get it?”

    Bravcon, just curious if you had the chance to check out americanmortgageeducatorsinc.com web site yet? I just assumed you have since you have not replied.

  120. Todd,
    Yes I did and admit to misrepresenting fact. It seems June 11 is the last day to purchase. It certainly appears to be a liquidation sale. Which brings to mind multiple questions. Why the 11th? Legal issues I would guess. With that in mind, since Speed Equity is web based are you sure you’re going to be able to use it? Who will be your support team? Since you bought a 12 month subscription and not lifetime, how do you know you will get another year much less the 10-12 years it would take to payoff your home?

  121. OK, I have avoided reading this post or the comments for this time as I am the South FLorida Mortgage Planner that has talked about the fact that these programs may be costing people more than they think.

    The bottom line is that while these programs are good for some, everyone needs to look at ALL strategies and be educated on ALL concepts, then determine what is best for them. My post at ActiveRain (link is already in comments and #2 in Google) was to highlight the importance of that fact.

    People should read this website I have at http://www.flmortgageplanner.com to leanr some of the truths and misconseptions surrounding mortgages and home equity. You will learn that Home Equity is a crappy investment and you can read this post at AR to see how it is actually better to bury your money in your backyard.(Which is the Safer Investment – Home Equity or Burying Your Money in the Backyard?)

  122. Robert,

    How would your system work for middle America, where majority of the home appreciations are around 2% or less? I guess I don’t understand how interest only or neg am mortgages would work for us folks in the middle of the country? I bought my home 5 years ago for $190,000. I did not have 20% to put down, so I financed my home at 95%, with a second mortgage taking care of the other 15%. So, today, my home is probably worth $205,000 (2% growth/year). I owe approximately $175,000, resulting in $30,000 equity. With your way, am I suppose to refinance to a 30 year IO loan (and in my situation, pay PMI), cash out to the max value of my home ($25,000 (-$5,000 closing costs) and invest that $25,000 and the difference between the interest only payment and P&I payment? Do I keep doing this every 5 years or so, so as long as I have some equity in my home? Lastly, in my situaiton, is the way you suggest better than if I: did an MMA type mortgage accelerator; paid off my home and all other debt in less than 8 years; and take that money that was going toward my mortgage and other debts and invest for the remaining of what would have been my mortgage (25 years)? When I had an MMA analysis done, in my situation, if I did that, at a 6% return, I would have banked 1.37 million during those 25 years. Can I get better results by doing it the way you suggest? If so, how? Thanks.

    Todd

  123. bravcon,

    You have good points regarding the stability of the Speed Equity system currently being sold (at least for one more day) by american mortgage educators. Take a look at Harj Gill’s current posting on his web site, things seem to be heating up. For me, I split the cost w/ a co-worker, so I only invested $30, the cost of the book w/ shipping, so I’m really not out anything. I’m still undecided whether or not I’m going to take this process any further and obtain a HELOC. For the past week, I’ve played around with different scenarios with Speed Equity and I’m simply amazed how fast I could be debt free. I’m also interested to see what Robert Ashby has to say about my posting above. I have not ruled out MMA either, just because I know it takes a lot of the guess work out, and the two agents whom I know personally, and whom ran my analysis, have good heads on their shoulders and I can trust their judgment (one is a bankruptcy attorney and the other is a high school principle). I just don’t know if the MMA program outperforms Speed Equity by $3,340 (especially when my numbers were ran, but I know MMA is said to be about 20% more conservative w/ their analysis).

  124. Todd,

    I would ask that you send me an email to this address to explain your situation…askme@floridaloanadvocate.com.

    The only reason I asked this is that I have had so many people inquire with me to help them, I have decided to dedicate some time each week specifically to address people’s situation’s and help them choose what is truly in their best interests. This website (http://www.floridaloanadvocate.com) is being developed for that purpose and to highlight some myths and misconceptions among other mortgage topics.

    I only do loans in Florida, but to ensure the answers remain unbiased, anyone submitting a question via the email will not be permitted to be a client of mine for at least 30 days (maybe longer…I have not decided). I can, of course, direct you to someone else that can handle your loan needs.

    I cannot guarantee I can help everyone that submits their situation to me, but I will be posting (no personal info) various situations that may benefit yours anyways. I would like to assist everyone, but I am but one person and I do not have the time, unfortunately.

  125. “If your money is going out of your pocket at a rate of 6% (Your Mortgage) and you put your discretionary income in savings that earns 6%, the money the savings just sits there doing nothing. If you invested in the stock market and earn 9% then you actually earning 3%.”

    thats not what we are talking about here.

    you can either pay that discretionary income to you mortgage, effectively earning 6% by reducing 6% interest on that amount, or just go earn that 6% directly.

    you will have the exact same number of dollars on your family balance sheet in that case, but now your money isn’t tied up in the home. it is 100% liquid. would i suggest you stop there? no. I would suggest you invest that money. into the stock market directly? no.

    9% doesn’t mean anything in the stock market. The investment is taxable, so that reduces the returns. The investment or adviser may have fees, reducing your return.

    lets do a simple exercise here. you have 100K. you earn 50% the first year. 150K now. now you lose 50% the second year. guess what, you have 75K. average rate of return…zero. does it feel like zero?

    is the market a bad place to invest? not necessarily, but would i put my discretionary income or home equity there before putting it somewhere that protects me? no.

    “”Lets just say that you paid off your mortgage or for whatever reason your money is not going out of your pocket anymore. “”

    on the exact day that you would pay off your mortgage in you system, you would have the same dollar amount in your side account as you owed in mine, and could pay it off. but you have liquid access at no cost to you the entire time.

  126. [[[[“okay, heres the big one. retirement. congrats on paying off your home. you put every dollar into one asset. Ask any financial planner if ONE PRODUCT is a good portfolio…I dare you. we call that putting all of your eggs in one basket.”

    The MMA works on your discretionary income. Discretinary income is not money that you use for investments. It’s money that would sit in your checking account.

    I use the MMA program and I still invest in my 401k and Roth IRA and stock.

    You are still in control of your money. The goal of the MMA program is to pay off your mortgage with the amount of discretionary income you have.

    If you decide to dedicate some of your discretionary income to other investments then you just tell the MMA program that your monthly expenses increased by that amount and it will still calculate your new pay off date.]]]]

    that works for those of us that are putting, after our investments, and after our mortgage costs, food, clothes, gifts etc, still have bunch of income in our checking account. thats not a lot of people. the average american has 9K in credit card debt. paying that off is WAY better than putting it towards the mortgage.

    and if your putting money into a retirement account, it must be because its doing better than paying it to your mortgage, because otherwise you would put it there. so why not put the discretionary income to that instead?

  127. [[[I use the MMA program and I still invest in my 401k and Roth IRA and stock.]]]

    i wish your mind was open enough to realize that that in itself doesn’t make sense. i guess no planner has ever taken the time to educate you on just exactly why.

  128. Generating more interest income from cash accounts, and then employing it to do something, is definitely a good idea… and there are many low risk FREE options for accomplishing that already available to every average homeowner.

    Such as FDIC insured interest bearing now/checking or savings account, a money market account, a brokerage investment accounts, a high yield online savings account, etc… http://www.bankrate.com/brm/rate/chk_sav_home.asp …these are the exact same things most folks already use.

    Most All of these options are FREE to open and free to use, with some currently yielding 6% apy or more! The incremental interest income from any of these FREE alternatives can be used to pre-pay a mortgage or any other debt (highest APR first), or it can be re-invested as the individual may see fit. All of these actions will result in a compounding of the incremental interest income and provide benefits over time.

    In stark contrast, paying $3,500 of software, then opening a HELOC to ‘attempt’ to replace a interest bearing cash demand account, which may also carry origination expenses, and re-occurring yearly fees, as well as possible transaction fees, imposes an almost insurmountable inefficiency that costs you money.

    The very first obstacle that must be overcome is the $3,500 upfront cost, and the lost interest income from the $3500. But, that is only part of the opportunity cost. Additionally, the origination and re-occurring yearly fees generate negative compounding cash flows, which add to the opportunity cost of this costly approach.

    To just break even, you would need to earn/save the $3,500 in interest, as well as cover all of the compounded losses on the $3,500 expense, and cover all of the compounded losses generated by the origination, yearly or transaction fees. PLUS, on top of all that also achieve a return that is equal to what you could have instead simply earned by depositing money into an interest bearing cash account.

    Don’t forget or overlook that the baseline you could already get for free, and with very little risk, is also part of the lost opportunity cost of this voodoo approach. Taking extra risk to earn the same return is not generally a wise investment strategy.

    When you actually sit down and do the math and financial analysis, you will see that in all likelihood the average person will never even break even by purchasing and following this quite costly approach, as compared to what can be accomplished for free.

    Don’t confuse prudent debt management and consolidation which reduces your overall interest expense, with the ‘incremental’ income/savings that may be generated from investing your monthly cash flows. When the ‘incremental’ benefit is comparatively small… upfront costs and fees have a negative dramatic impact!

    http://www.integramortgages.com/financialvoodoo

  129. “”that works for those of us that are putting, after our investments, and after our mortgage costs, food, clothes, gifts etc, still have bunch of income in our checking account. thats not a lot of people. the average american has 9K in credit card debt. paying that off is WAY better than putting it towards the mortgage.””

    You are right about the average American being in debt. But it’s not because they don’t make enough money to cover their needs. It’s because they spend more then they make on unnecessary things. They don’t need to go to Starbucks 5 days a week or buy 300 channel satellite TV, or drive a brand new Lexus. Sure there are people that are poor but we aren’t talking about them.

    For those that say “I don’t have any discretionary income”, instead of saying that, ask yourself “How can I get discretionary income?”. The answer is pretty simple you can either increase your income or reduce your expenses. For most, reducing their expenses is the easiest.

    To me that is not a good reason not to pay off your mortgage. It’s an excuse so you can keep going to Starbucks everyday. It’s definitely a lot easier (and convenient) to have debt instead of being debt free.

    “”and if your putting money into a retirement account, it must be because its doing better than paying it to your mortgage, because otherwise you would put it there. so why not put the discretionary income to that instead?””

    I am really surprised with your statement. Your argument was that by paying off your mortgage you are putting all your money into one asset. My response was that’s not true, for me I am stilling paying off my mortgage and still diversifying my investments. That’s why.

    [[[I use the MMA program and I still invest in my 401k and Roth IRA and stock.]]]
    i wish your mind was open enough to realize that that in itself doesn’t make sense. i guess no planner has ever taken the time to educate you on just exactly why.

    My mind is perfectly open. I have talked to my financial adviser, my cpa, several loan officers who I trust and they all said it doesn’t get any better than paying off my mortgage. But you know what? I don’t need them to tell me, that is my short term goal.

    Your goal is to make as much money as possible. My goal is to get rid of all my debt and retire comfortably. That is where the MMA program comes in. I am scheduled to pay off my home in 4 years instead of 30 and that’s worth every penny of $3,500 I paid. And did I mention I will be 30 when I pay off my home. How about them apples?

    Honestly both our goals will get us to the same spot, not having to work at Walmart to make ends meet at age 65. I have been using the MMA program for 2 months now. I just have one question for you. Are you investing your discretionary income? If not, maybe you should sit down with a financial adviser. To help you with your goal I would recommend you looking to dividend paying stocks. Also read into no-load stocks so you don’t have to pay brokerages fees that eat into your profit.

    I really would like to hear what your goals are.

  130. “”that works for those of us that are putting, after our investments, and after our mortgage costs, food, clothes, gifts etc, still have bunch of income in our checking account. thats not a lot of people. the average american has 9K in credit card debt. paying that off is WAY better than putting it towards the mortgage.””

    You are right about the average American being in debt. But it’s not because they don’t make enough money to cover their needs. It’s because they spend more then they make on unnecessary things. They don’t need to go to Starbucks 5 days a week or buy 300 channel satellite TV, or drive a brand new Lexus. Sure there are people that are poor but we aren’t talking about them.

    For those that say “I don’t have any discretionary income”, instead of saying that, ask yourself “How can I get discretionary income?”. The answer is pretty simple you can either increase your income or reduce your expenses. For most, reducing their expenses is the easiest.

    To me that is not a good reason not to pay off your mortgage. It’s an excuse so you can keep going to Starbucks everyday. It’s definitely a lot easier (and convenient) to have debt instead of being debt free.

  131. I hope people who read Taner posts realize that if he talks about paying off his mortgage in 4 years that on a $100,000 mortgage he is making payments of over $28000 a year versus the $7200 payment for the 30 year mortgage. Investing follows personal preferences.Personally I am happy with my 15% averages I got over the past years versus worrying about using these funds to pay off a mortgage at 5.5%. Paying off debt fast is not always the best investment strategy. Government and free enterprise uses other people’s money if the cost to them is less than the return.

  132. i really would like to understand why if you can pay off your house in 4 years (because you have THAT MUCH discretionary income, which as a 26 year old, especially if not married with no kids, im sure you do) you need a software program to show you how?

    with the example of a 100K mortgage, just the principle is 25K per year. most people don’t have that kind of cash to throw around and if they do, don’t need software to tell them how.

    i don’t mean to be confrontational about any of this, but as someone who sees people such as this on a daily basis, so many people are 100% sure of FACTS that are just not true.

    If what you knew to be true turned out not to be…when would you want to know?

  133. i agree with you 100% that the people who are 9K in credit card debt etc. are in that position not because of income, but because of spending.

    lets just look at some things that are amazing to most people today, who have no idea financially.

    a little fact work:

    lets say MR. American earns 100K per year and saves 6K per year. Seeing as the average person doesn’t save anything and is in debt, maybe they put 6K into a 401k. I see much worse than this all the time.

    if we could reduce Mr. A’s expenses by 1%, that would save $940 per year. if he makes 100K and only saves 6K, 94K is going to expenses (those include taxes etc) Compared to the earnings on 6K which at 10% would be $600. reducing the expenses by 1% is the equivalent of a 16% return on 6K. And whats the risk to reducing your expenses rather than “chasing rate of return.” in almost all cases, the risk is zero.

    is that what people focus on? is that what typical financial advisors focus on? no. they focus on chasing rate of return. pay ME the 1% to manage your money and i’ll make you 12% not 8%, which ends up being the same anyway (99% of the time)

  134. why not just make a family budget. make sure your bottom line is in the black, not the red. Open up an equity line just in case, and put all that black into your mortgage. if you need extra, you can use the equity line, and if not, it all went to your mortgage?

    this isn’t what i would advise to do, but i still don’t see the complexity.

  135. I just wanted to post my experience so far with MMA. At first I was really skeptical. I mean come on, something that sounds too good to be true coming out of the mortgage industry?

    After spending allot of time with the agent from UFF trying to wrap my mind around the concept it started to make sense. My wife and I bought our home 3 years or so ago on an interest only loan with the intentions of paying extra to pay it down. We never did, I know I know…real smart. We just started doing other things with the money. We did save but spent as well.

    After being on the MMA for 7-8 months now we made one transfer from our new equityline to the first mortgage and paid off $5300 roughly on our first mortgage, that balance was moved to our line of credit but is now paid almost to $0 using our discretionary income. Our website is now telling us to send more money.

    To break it down in the last 7 months we have paid off $5300 in the previous 2 years+ we had paid very little. It focused our attention on our mortgage and we will be paid off in roughly 9 years. After that we can invest/save do anything we want with that money and now it is such a great feeling to know there is some light at the end of the tunnel and while we invest/save after our home is paid off we will be secure with the roof over our head as guaranteed as anything can be in this world.

    Like many have said look into what is good for you and dont buy it if its not for you but this has been and continues to be huge for us.

    Jay

  136. Jay – I have experienced much of the same with my MMA. We’ve been about 6 months on the program and we’ve reduced our principle balance by over $5K. In the last 2.5 yrs we had only reduced our balance about $2K (even sending in a little extra monthly). I know some people don’t think it’s wise to pay off your mortgage, but for us…that is our goal. Not to mention the fact that MMA has helped our focus and motivation. MMA has helped us with our spending because we see the effect immediately. Our goal is clearer than ever and I feel more in control of our financial future than ever before.

    There are those posting who say just make a budget and stick to it. Sure – and how many times have you tried to quit smoking or lose weight? The road to hell is paved with good intentions (quote from my dad). For us, this works. For others, something else may work. And that’s ok. Do what works and assists you with your goals. Just because you don’t agree, doesn’t mean it’s wrong or a scam. It’s just not YOUR choice.

  137. Shari

    I agree. Maybe for some people out there they could do this on thier own but I never would have. We are now moving in a much more positive direction than we ever were before and its exciting to me. It makes me want to find ways to cut expenses even more to make better progress.

    If someone can do that on thier own I respect that but for me, im going to be saving tons of time and interest that I would not have done on my own.

    Honestly paying my home off in 9 years just by following a system that I dont have to put too much effort into is totaly worth the $3500 in my mind. But that is me, some people wont want to do that so again I say if you can do it on your own feel free……I would have spent $3500 on a vacation this year anyway. So now im out one vacataion but im going to pay off my house.

    Thax yall
    Jay

  138. Recent results of MMA analsys: Pay off existing morgage in 7.5 years, that’s with $1,200 per month figured in as “discreationary income”. Here are the facts – I am 50 years old. I have 24.4 years left on a 30 year $162,800.00 1st morgage @ 6.125% – monthly payments are $989.00. I have a FIDELITY mutual fund that has paid an annual average yield of 17+% since inception ( that’s 1989 – granted the past is no guarantee of the future, however, it’s a no load fund, below average risk with a great track record, regardless, anything over 6.125% is good). Here are a few of my options: 1)Pay $3,500.00, DISIPLINE myself, follow the plan, pay off the morgage in 7.5 years. 2) Invest, starting with the $3,500.00, add to it the “discreationary income” of $1,200.00 per month @ 10%(conservative rate for my fund-given it’s track record thus far), pay off the house in approximately 6.5 years (plus the tax advantage stays for 6.5 years, continue to invest and make $$). 3) This is the path I am taking – Starting with a 10K IRA (rolled it over from old 401K money from a previous job), add to it $200 per month @ 12% (again very conservative – last 2 years the annual return has been 15+%)I can do one of two things – take the earnings and pay the balance due on the morgage at approximately 12 years (saves me $47,429.00 in interest payments and another $105,346.00 in principle + I keep the tax advantage for 12 years). Then start from scratch, continue to invest the $989.00 for the remaining 12.4 years and earn $315,551.88. Or I can forget paying off the house take the tax advantage every year, by the end of the remaining 24.4 years the pot would be worth $506,837.00, subtract the $47,429 for interest paid over the past 12.4 years (remember,I could have paid it off), and the $105,346 in principle payments over the past 12.4 years, net result = $354,062.00 in the kitty at the end of the morgage. Just another twist to the thread.

  139. Thats awesome. Glad you have the time and know how. I would just have some money in my savings and a few new toys and be paying my mtg for 30 years.

    And honestly most people in this country are more like me. I have friends who have degrees in finance and were plugging along just like most people. This program is for people who are not currently doing things like that on thier own. Like I say, if you can do this or something better on your own more power to you.

    For those of us who cant or have not been, its a life saver. I believe it was this thread, if not it was another on same topic….Chase, US Bank & Wells Fargo are knocking down these guys doors to be a part of it. You will be seeing this in the next few months/years. If it were a scam they wouldnt be wanting to get involved. The final meeting I went to before I signed up the westerm regional director for US Bank was at the meeting and seemed impressed. That was probably the final nail in the deal for me.

    Thanx much
    Jay

    Jay

  140. Jay,

    You’re right. This will be the next big thing that banks start offering their clients when they do Equity lines. People need direction and this is perfect for all homeowners who want to pay down their mortgage the fastest way possible. People who think they can do this themselves are fooling themselves just for the sake of argument. This program is designed to fit everyones unique situation and adapt to change when needed…..do you have a program that does that? Are you selling it? NO? then your not smart enough to do it on your own.

    Are these same people running their own self designed operating systems on their PC’s…Again, don’t have your own homemade copy of Windows? NO? Get over it, this program works and it wouldn’t matter if it cost 10,000, it would still save you hundreds of thousands in life long interest.

    Brad

  141. Banks and lenders are in the business to make money.It doesn’t make a bit of difference to the lender if you pay off your mortgage in 10 or 30 years – the interest rate and principal don’t change. They actually prefer the shorter pay-off: the sooner they get their money back, the sooner they can give it to the next borrower; the sooner you are building equity, the lower the risk for default at a loss. Why do lenders offer lower interest rates on the 15year mortgage? Right, they have something to gain. Now they can entice more people in taking out equity lines to pay for everything from cars to electric bills to groceries. It doesn’t bother them that you are using it to your advantage, they are making money as you are using it. Can you see that just because banks are interested in this isn’t necessarily an endorsement of the product from the consumer standpoint? What has bothered me about most posts of the proponents of the program are the lopsided claims, without clearly stating the premises. How about the following statements:
    A) It works, but not for everybody
    B) Just like investing, paying off your mortgage early might not meet everybody’s investment goals; especially if you are looking at the long range and you are seeking a higher return.
    C) For the majority of home owners paying off their 30 year mortgage in 10-15 years requires making a substantially higher payment each month. Doubling your payments for anything around 10 years.

  142. the thing that i think bothers most of the people who have questions about it, is the MMA program doesn’t really save you money, what its doing is taking your income, subtracting your expenses (investments etc included) and then telling you to put the difference to your mortgage.

    so, people are obviously thinking. the basic idea, okay, open a heloc so you can get money in an emergency, and then just send all the leftover money every month to the bank. no MMA software needed.

    I agree, this is good for some, not for others. What i would like is for someone to discuss other than discipline and control issues, what is the benefit? what does it do other than force you to make a budjet (and keep track of it for you) and tell you to send the difference to the bank?

  143. [For the majority of home owners paying off their 30 year mortgage in 10-15 years requires making a substantially higher payment each month. Doubling your payments for anything around 10 years.]

    in order to pay off your 30 year loan in 15 years, you would have to make the equivalent 15 year (same interest rate) loan payment. the 30 year gives you the advantage of not being obligated to that payment.

    next logical step, interest only loan still making the 15 year payment as long as you can. This again, if you really really want to pay off your house…(i hope you are religious and pray you don’t lose your income 6 months before its payed off, because you will have spent all that time paying for the banks house).

  144. The one thing I dont get are the people who say “well if you loose your job all that money went to nothing and you will loose your home”. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you are 6 months 6 years or whatever from paying off your home you have access to all that money through your equityline. Draw out what you need untill you get back on your feet.

    Yes you will be raising the balance again but you are no worse off than if you hadnt paid all that money. And every time you take money out the software shows you exactly how much that is extending your payoff encouraging you to get going again.

    Im sure the next skeptics statement will be “So you put all that money in for nothing and you are raising the balance again” The answer to that is yes you are raising the balance but who in their right mind would loose thier job and just sit there and pout while all thier money and hard work goes up in smoke? They will do what most hard working people do and go out and get another job.

    If a person who had invested their money in stocks or whatever sat around and didnt get another job they would be in the same boat, using up all that money they invested while still having a big mortgage payment.

    It all comes down to how you use your money and what is right for you.

    Wether you are trying to pay off your home or you are investing if you dont work hard and be smart with your money you are in trouble.

    And just because certain people would prefer to do something other than pay off their mortgage with with their money doesnt mean that those of us doing so are getting scammed. As I said before, I would never be doing this on my own. Honestly before this came along I didnt even know it could be done.

    It was very educational for me.

    Jay

  145. Jay, you are exactly right. The argument of losing your job holds no ground. MMA didn’t cause you to lose your job so it’s a situation you would have to deal with wether you started this program or not. How you deal with it is up to you. Whether you have invested your money or used MMA, it will still be a setback. But you’ll be glad you had something in place to cushion the fall, whichever method you choose.

    Another argument I hear is about natural disasters. What about floods, tornados, hurricanes? First off, isn’t that why we have insurance? And second, if you owe the bank $200K and your house is destroyed, you still owe the bank $200K? If insurance doesn’t cover that, then what do you have? You’d have to cash in your investments to cover the balance of the loan. That argument doesn’t make any sense to me.

    And I’m with you in that I was not investing properly before I started MMA. I had savings, checking, CD’s and a modest 401(K). For me, this is amazing. It’s opened my mind to many things I had not heard of or considered before. And I think I am very typical of the American public. There are those who invest and that’s fantastic. But for the rest of us, this is a great way for us to get farther ahead than what we would have done on our own. Everyone should just do what works best for them and stop bashing the other side. Neither way is wrong, or a scam. It’s personal preference.

  146. Checkout the very wise comments from Ben Stein, the well know and highly respected financial commentator… he’s also a pretty funny guy.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/yourlife/37252

    Drawing on the fundamentals of finance and his trademark wit, economist Ben Stein offers easy-to-follow advice on index funds, mutual funds, annuities, real estate, and the secrets of a building a winning stock portfolio. “How Not to Ruin Your Life” appears every other Monday exclusively on Yahoo! Finance.

    “… I get many letters asking whether it’s better to pay off your mortgage or invest the money in the stock market instead. This is a complex question, but I’ll offer several ways of thinking about it.

    First, no one ever spent a sleepless night because she had millions in the bank and stocks but didn’t have her home paid off. On the other hand, if you pay off your mortgage and deprive yourself of liquidity, you could be in for some miserable times.

    As I see it, if money is even the slightest bit tight, hold onto it and pay off the mortgage month by month. There’s nothing magically good about having a paid-off mortgage, but there’s something seriously bad about Not having ready liquid assets even if your home is paid for. …”

    Analyzing how to best employ one’s discretionary income can be a complicated issue… there are just so many different alternatives available. It truly takes both time and experience to weigh and properly analyze the many different options available, as everyone’s financial situation and goals are different.

    Make sure you do your own research, educate yourself, and seek out the advice and opinions of as many reputable, educated, experienced, and hopefully wise professionals as you can. Dig into ALL of the details, ask tons of questions, and make sure you understand the answers… only then should you make a truly informed and considered decision.

    Don’t be mislead by any one particular product or solution or promises of ‘magical’ results… find out all of the facts for yourself!

    http://www.integramortgages.com/financialvoodoo

  147. I am curious about MMA and this is a very good thread but I MUST say that Ron’s most recent post makes absolutely NO SENSE AT ALL! The guy is basically lying through his teeth and using big fancy words and slandering the facts about the MMA process. LOL Ron said:

    >

    Re-ocurring fees? origination fees adding to this costly approach?? There are no re-ocurring fees or any additional costs other than the $3500 for the software that most people pay for out of the HELOC and never miss it given that the product will make sure homes are paid off faster (any other method is better than what I am doing now paying min pymnt and I am very interested in MMA)… that $3500 and savings is better than paying $200,000.00 in interest that I am scheduled to pay now. So Ron… QUIT BASHING A PRODUCT THAT WORKS and while other ideas are welcome.. DON’T BASH A PRODUCT THAT WORKS FOR PEOPLE.

    Ron is a LOSER!

  148. I am on the program for 3 months. I have been busy telling people about how good this program is. The best part for me is that since I have a line of credit of $25,000, then I never have to worry about “overdrafts” on my checking account. My family are terrible spenders and had numerous credit cards when I joined MMA. WE did not any left over ..instead our credit cards debts continues to mount!

    Also MMA opened my eyes to the fact that any savings I have is practically doing nothing for me …so I tranferred all my saving into paying extra principal to accelerate my mortgage payoff faster.
    I even stopped paying into my Deferred Comp..in order to have more discretionary income!

    I had 28.5 years left on my mortgage when I started. Right now , my website shows 9.1 years payoff.

    Also, the MMA program had already prompted me twice ($5,000 plus $6,000). This means I am 4 years ahead of my mortgage than those NON MMA people or skeptics.

    Also since we started on the program, I never say NO to my children when they want to eat out or go to Disney because I know that I have my HELOC which serves as my REVOLVING CREDIT.

    Come on you skeptics, just try it , even without the software you will benefit from the concept ..you will however..not come out with the best savings than if you have the software..plus who has time to sit down and do worksheets?

    I LOVE MMA!!!If you are in Central Florida area visit my website at http://www.mmaservices.net

    Maria

  149. Ron:

    When you mention “On the other hand, if you pay off your mortgage and deprive yourself of liquidity, you could be in for some miserable times” I laugh. Take this advice from the author of the book ‘The Creature from Jekyll Island’ G. Edward Griffin.

    Increasing one’s net worth by eliminating debt carries zero risk. All other investment strategies carry risk. True, there is an inflation factor, but home equity generally keeps up with that, while many other investments fall behind. Even those that show long-term gains in terms of dollars, when adjusted for inflation, turn out to be modest performers. Residential real estate may have its ups and downs (related to tampering of interest rates by the Federal Reserve); but, in the long run, it has a good track record for keeping up with inflation.

    There is nothing illiquid about owning one’s home free and clear. If an emergency should arise or even an investment opportunity-of-a-lifetime, there is nothing easier than to reverse direction and obtain a home-equity loan. Any home owner with equity can be rolling in cash within an hour. That’s liquidity.

    Regarding banks having control of equity, just the opposite is true. When a mortgage is paid off, the equity lies entirely in the hands of the home owner, not the banks.

    Ron you are a snake in the grass from what I can tell.

    Your concept of “dead” equity is common among investment brokers who would rather have home owners let them invest their money into something else. In some cases, that may be wise, provided the alternate investment can deliver a sufficiently high yield to make up for continuing mortgage interest payments plus tax liability on profits from the investment plus the broker’s commissions plus the risk inherent in the investment itself. It has been my experience that, for all but the most savvy investors, elimination of mortgage interest is the best first step toward financial security.

    I am not saying investing is not a bad idea. Quite the contrary. But MMA is quite an option to consider for those that are perfectly content sitting pretty with NO mortgage payment and in perfect position to invest or use the equity to pay for school for the kids, a vacation home, invest along the way, etc. It seems to me Ron is making this idea of MMA (endorsed by an NBC affiliate in Las Vegas recently) as a scheme created to somehow create a worse situation than many homeowners already are in (making minimum payments and paying hundreds of thousands in interest)

    Good day sir!

  150. And also Ron, while you offer FREE (as you like to cap the word so will I) spreadsheets to help people who want to pay additional payments that is great – for those who choose to use a method better than they are currently doing. But anyone who has been around the block knows full well that you offer these free products to offer YOUR service as well (why else should I have to enter my email address to receive it? – lol).

    Additionally, $2.2 mil and 5 patents (pending currently) says that FREE spreadsheet does not take in all the factors of an open-ended HELOC which drives the system and all the banking math required to pay off your loan in the least amount of time, guaranteeing that the lay person does not make a mistake (how many of us are math wizzes and devoid of human error?) and better than the formulas patented in the MMA software whose principles created such a stir in Australia that over 50% of Australians now use and pay off their homes in as little as a third of the time that Americans do – I dare you to beat the MMA software. You’d be a millionaire if you did. FREE spreadsheets are much better than paying the minimum payment every month. But in the service industry, people make a living off of charging people a fee to do it better, faster, with tangible benefits exceeding that of simply doing it yourself.

    “Doing it yourself” is what got us into this mess to begin with. Bottom-line, for $3500, paid through the HELOC instead of straining your checking or savings account, you know what you are getting – the best method I can find (beyond taking investment risks) to manage your money PERIOD, a reputable company, a money back guarantee, and a perspective that is focused on the mortgage payoff date and really seems to be the way I am leaning.

    I also am thrilled with the idea of the HELOC being a security blanket should I be out of a job for a while or some other diaster because when I pay more money to principle on my mortgage it is not easy to extract that money unless I pay up thousands to refi and with the HELOC, I would just write a check.

    We all know Ron doesn’t make his money providing “FREE” products. He works in the, you guessed it, loan-origination business!

  151. I don’t know about you all but I don’t have time (or the patience) to worry about how every payment I make or additional income received and other factors will affect what numbers I enter into a spreadsheet or trusty calculator. It is of course true that numbers don’t lie, people do (intentionally or not). Am I the only one who doesn’t want to have to keep track of every transaction with in addition to everything else going on in my life.

    If I didn’t already feel over-worked, over-taxed, and under-compensated (LOL) I wouldn’t feel such a need to figure out a better way out of dealing with the biggest expense I have in my budget (my mortgage payment) and with the assurance my finances will be taken care of correctly, every time and that every penny is accounted for.

    The MMA (and there is only one “MMA” out there and that is the Money Merge Account provided by United First Financial – not to be confused with other “accelerator” programs) appeals to me because it, in my opinion, delivers the solution for unexpected expenses and financial setbacks that I worry about constantly – and I know for sure I would have the support I need from that company and I can’t find one person on the ‘net who has used the product and sorry they did (seems that everyone loves it and wants to also try and earn income helping share with others the success they have had).

    I don’t have to know anything other than what it coming in and what is going out when inputting information. I can do that much.

    And seeing that the banking knowledge known to a small group of Elites that has sent consumers, businesses, and governments into more and more debt is very destructive to all of our economic lives and designed to earn expontential profits off of a statistical majority of people from all walks of life the solution, it appears to me is not what minimum payment I can afford, or how many times I need to refinance, or how many millions I can make sending my money elsewhere, instead of taking advice from someone who offers more loans and debt – I will choose a product that can get my mortgage PAID (aka no more mortgage payment- whoohooo!) in as little time as possible and THEN I can start to take consider more riskier solutions – and without the hassle or stress added to my already over-packed life trying to figure out interest rates and how much and when, etc. I can just enter my income, enter my expenses and GO!

    If I am going to bother and get a HELOC and the responsibility that comes with it, I want to make sure it’s done right! “If it’s worth doing (and boy is it if you’re like me) – it’s worth doing RIGHT.”

    If you can do it yourself, great. Do I want to? NO! Can I be assured that I will pay off my mortgage and have someone other than myself to blame if something doesn’t work out in the long run? Only with MMA – it appears (WITH the benefit of liquidity in the form of a HELOC in case of an emergency). Obtaining financial freedom and getting rid of my mortgage (and bankers and brokers in my life) is too important to trust some free spreadsheet whose quarantee is based solely on the accuracy of the information I input. And I doubt some free spreadsheet is as easy to use as the MMA software. I HATE MATH!

  152. I agree, RON is a loser!

    Come one Guys, let us defend MMA , let us re educate the public! Can you imagine a debt free America in about 8 to 10 years? MMA is the “anti biotic” for debts!

    I still find it hard to beleive that there are so many folks who’d rather pay $200,000 in interest instead of $75,000. Come on, America! Do your math, be smart! Join MMA! Stop paying TOO much interest to the banks!Keep it in your pockets. For me, it was a no brainer. I am pocketing $180,000….now, that is my retirement money which I never thought I’d have! I’ve managed to save $15,000 in deferred compensation over the last 7 years, but I am stopping that paycheck deduction as well. I’d rather pay off my mortgage fast.
    I know that I have an Equity to fall back to just in case.

    Thanks United First Financial, you are a saving grace!

  153. I’m really glad to see people that use the MMA program post their experiences. You are well on your way to a better and a lot less stressful life. Can you imagine not sending $1,000 every month? I bet you are smiling right now.

    I recently finished reading “The Millionaire Next Door” and I would highly recommend it. You can go to simplemma.com under Book Reviews.

    I really like this book because it’s not a concept on how to make a million or based on people that will/might be wealthy in the future. It’s a study on lifestyles of real people that are already millionaires. This book distunguishes between true millionaires and the people that look like millionaires.

    In summary the real millionaires are the dick and janes next door living an average lifestyle and making average income. The book talks about 7 factors of the true millionaires and not the millionaire wannabes. The first two most important are (1) Living well below your means and (2) allocating time, energy, and money efficiently, in ways to build wealth.

    Unfortunately the authors don’t really go into if the millionaires kept their mortgage for 30 years or paid it off, but after reading it I’m sure that they didn’t pay twice the amount of the original price.

    They do talk about people that have huge homes and people saying “the interest paid is tax deductible” are bunch of morons. People like that just care about how much they are saving in taxes rather than considering how much they are paying on the interest of the loan and all other expenses go along with owning a huge home.

    Also on a side note the authors came up with a simple formula to determine if your wealth is where it should be. I created a calculator on my web site under book reviews based on their formula if you want to see where you are standing.

  154. This RON guy with Integra Mortgages has an interesting name for his company… based, I assume, on the word INTEGRITY.

    At first I thought he was just not the brightest bulb in the chandelier and just had not educated himselb about this program – the Money Merge Account. Then someone pointed out to me that there is a method to his madness. His entire marketing plan seems to be based around hanging out on blogs, posts and forums and smearing the name of United First Financial… misstating facts… and making up stuff that is simply not true.

    Why? To drive traffic to HIS web site!

    He even has purchased KEY WORDS in Google… so that his companies site comes up when people Google United First Financial.

    Does his marketing plan have integrity?

    Would you do business with someone that cannot sell his own product on it’s merits… but instead slams someone elses?

    It would not be so bad if he at least explained that he is only voicing an opinion… or that he is simply trying to capitalize on the web traffic that United First Financial is creating. But he is not upfront about that.

    Instead he tries to make United First Financial … that has sold 10,000 of these software programs so far… with ZERO complaints in the Better Business Bureau… look bad.

    The worst part is… neither Ron… nor the guy that runs THIS BLOG (the simple dollar) … REALLY understand how this program works. If they did… they would not make untrue statements and/or make it sound like it is so simple to do it yourself.

    The UFF software will save you way more money than if you took every penny of your discretionary income and threw it at your mortgage. For one of my clients… the software beat the scenario of throwing every penny of their discretionary income at their mortgage by SIX years and $48,000. That is HUGE… and while I would never say that a super smart math person could not get close – if they knew how to do the math… 99% of us could not without this tool.

  155. Please respond if you have seen the powerpoint (not video) presentation from UFirst that I am describing here . It uses a $200,000 mortgage as example, $5000 monthly income, and $4000 expenses ($1000 discretionary income). It leads the viewer through a month by month for the first year.A principal payment of about $3000 is made every 3 months from the HELOC. At the end of one year it shows the MMA method produces a balance of $184,700 whereas the conventional has a balance of 197,400.In this comparison it doesn’t apply the same $12000 of additional payments from discretionary income that was made using the MMA. If I were to make the same additional payment with my regular mortgage payment the balance of the conventional method would be $185,000. Does that mean the benefit of the program neglecting additional payments is about $300 for the first year for a 200k mortgage? It sure looked that way in the presentation I watched.This question is for the people who have seen the PPT that I am referring to and therefore can respond intelligently. I am still sitting on the fence and I want to know how much of the results is due to the application of discretionary income (we regular people call them additional payments) and how much is due to the timing of payments and the use of the HELOC that uses daily interest computation.

  156. Ralf if you are one of those people who wants to know every variable in the program, basically figuring out the program’s secrets (no one will) then you will be on the fence for quite a while. Good luck.

  157. Ralf – part of the process is definitely timing and amounts to send to the first mortgage. Another is the fact that many people cannot/do not set money aside to send in the extra principle payments. Even if they COULD do it themselves, WOULD THEY? And if they do set money aside, how many actually end up applying it to their mortgage? Using the heloc in a sense forces you to use your money better. Another factor in using the software is the visual. I stay much more focused when I can see the effects.

    We just had an unexpected hospital bill for about $1,500. We paid it out of our heloc and it added a couple of months onto our mortgage. If that had come out of a savings account that we were building to pay extra on our mortgage, we would have no idea the effect it would have. And if we hadn’t set anything aside (which many people don’t) we would’ve had to make payments and feel it every month for several months. For me, knowing that hospital bill just cost me a couple more mortgage payments, caused me to cut back on some other things to try to “make it up” to myself. It’s kind of backwards from the way most people think of things, but it works!

    You have to be really educated, disciplined and willing to spend a lot of time on this to make it happen on your own. And if you don’t save at least $3500 more than you would have had you bought the program (not to mention your time spent), then the program would have paid for itself.

  158. Ralf first of all, instead of asking people like us about the program, why don’t you contact someone that actually works for the company? Also, one can easily see that the program only works with an open-ended loan (HELOC) and just applying additional payments every month (which, again, in your current scenario means that money is not easily recoverable in case you need to use it unless you already have a HELOC) and then running the ANALYSIS which the money back guarantee is based on (and since it’s based on the money back guarantee I see that many people finish 10-20% ahead of schedule) and just see which ends up paying your mortgage off faster with the benefits of having all the additional money you pay towards mortgage available to you in case you need it. The product only works when the variables that only a HELOC can deliver is utilized and if you don’t trust the analysis then hope off the fence, ignore all the positives, and keep doing something else, whatever that may be.

    I don’t mean to be rude but you just have to weigh the options: Is there another product out there that can get my mortgage paid off faster while also allowing me to not change the way I pay my bills or buy what I need change the way I am living now? Is there another product that offers a money back guarantee? I can’t find another one that doesn’t carry low-risk. In life, do you mostly get what you pay for? In other words, there probably is a reason why MMA is more expensensive than the “others” .. because it works.

    Basically the way I look at this is I really wouldn’t feel like I’ve made any changes to my lifestyle that restrict me in any way, gives me peace of mind with the liquidity, and also gives me (since HELOC is tied to my mortgage) the interest I pay on the mortgage and HELOC is STILL 100% tax-deductable! That’s AWESOME!! I have to qualify for a HELOC first. But for those who qualify, this product is revolutionary. And for all the spreadsheet gurus… I don’t care who you are. MMA will beat your formulas – 99% of the time. And I can depend on the program. The only naysayers are the ones who aren’t on the program. Just my opinion through careful observation.

  159. That statement is 100% true. Of all the blogs, forums and such that I have seen ( and ive seen quite a few ) I have not seen one single person who is on the program who is displeased or unhappy with the program. Its all people who are either selling something of thier own or people who dont quite understand the program.

    Also I checked with the BBB and chamber of commerce in utah and colorado, they along with their parent company have a squeeky clean record. Seriously, check them out. If the program didnt work or if there was not value in it wouldnt you think you might see a complaint about it? Or someone who was on it complaining about it somewhere? Wouldnt people have called the D.A. to look into it?

    I havent seen any of that anywhere, in fact there is a Las Vegas TV station ( NBC affiliate ) who has a finacial team whos only job is to check out different aspects of finacial things as a consumer advocate service for thier viewers and they say after investigating it for 6 months that they bought it and three of the team are now on it.

    Like I have said before, it is working for me.

    Jay

  160. Jason, et.al.
    I lead off my post by asking people who had seen the UFF PPT, to answer a question about the presentation, because the UFF REPRESENTATIVE could not.Nobody answered my question in their posts – including you. This is a discussion board, and I have not bashed the program; I even said in an earlier post that we can agree that it works.But all the UFF presentations I have seen have used examples where people make extra payments (Mary earns $2200 and has $1850 expenses and paid off her 200k mortgage in 11.6 years using the $350 discretionary income as extra payments – example from the UFF video). There are 3 factors why it works:
    A)It helps people to control their spending
    B)It sends additional payments towards the mortgage
    C)It times when payments are made.
    I only want to know how much of the result is based on C) or the infamous algorithm.
    The reason for my wanting to know is that I can do A) and B) myself and since my mortgage is small I like to know if C) justifies the expense.
    In an earlier post I said that I rather use any discretionary money and invest it at 10% or better rather than getting a return of less than 6%. But I also said I understood that some people have a different investment strategy or different priorities.
    The only reason this product would be for me is for C).
    This is an intriguing product, so when people ask questions they might just want to know. Like buying a cell phone with dozens of features, but you are only interested in one particular one.It might not matter that everybody who has this phone likes it, if I have a question about this one feature. Not everybody works for banks or competitors or is trying to write the software themselves or is getting personal. We are discussing it. If you only want to hear the success stories then use your own website and control the posts. This is an open forum.If you are tired of it or do not want to respond to questions then do not. Many of the questions that come up are because UFF in their marketing strategy uses some “hyped up” examples, like in the video where the lady gained $50000 in equity in one year and will pay off her mortgage in 5 years. Obviously this is less “due” to the program, but to her tripling her mortgage payments.If the company would lay out the program as I did in A),B),C) then fewer people would be so skeptical. I am just curious how much does the program itself contribute and how much is a result of the additional payments.If I had gotten a straight answer using a simple example rather than “it works because people say so” or “what do you have to lose we have a money back guarantee” I would not have to write this post. The UFF rep did not have the answer or the example I was looking for,so I asked the question here. If you are annoyed by that – too bad.Or, you could just use your software, plug in $100K mortgage, $2000 income and $2000 expenses ($0 discretionary) and no other loans and tell me how many years will be saved. My UFF rep did not want to do it; so I guess you will not either or any other rep out there.What is wrong with that question that I can not get it answered?

  161. Ralf – I have seen the PPT presentation but I don’t know how to answer your question based on that presentation. I can tell you that in order to beat the algorithms, you need to know
    A) when is the best time to send in extra money so you can pay it back down quickly without paying too much interest on the heloc
    B) how much to send so you save the most on the primary mortgage while paying the least on the heloc
    C) how to recover from monetary fluctuations and still save the most interest
    I’m not sure if this is what you are looking for.

    The PPT presentation is very general for explanations sake. It doesn’t show how the software works for fluctuations in income and expenses. Most people do not have EXACTLY the same numbers every single month. Especially their expenses. So if you have a good month or unexpected expenses, the algorithms take that into consideration.

    It sounds like you are very disciplined in your spending – that’s great. More people should be like that. But what if you miss something? How will you know when and how much to send to the first mortgage? How will you know when it’s ok to send a chunk and when you should hold back? Will your figures save you more than $3500? Will you stay on track in updating your spreadsheet (or whatever tool you use) for however many YEARS it takes? What if you get busy and fall behind in your figures? Are you likely to crunch the numbers until you are caught back up? The algorithms play a huge role in that they take all of that time, work and human error out of the equation. I think some people could utilize the principles of the program and save themselves a good bit of money. However, the algorithms will save you more than the cost of the program plus your time and energy in figuring everything out on your own.

    You asked about $100K mortgage with $2K income and $2K expenses with no other loans. In order to figure that out I’d need more variables. For example, how often do you get paid? If you truly have 0 discretionary income, and no way to “find” any by consolidating or limiting expenses, then this will not work for you.

    Good luck in your quest for the answers you are looking for. Sorry if this post didn’t help.

  162. I have one thought only to the people that say this is a scam and that you can do this by yourself, DO YOU, if not why, and please don’t give me the its not to my benefit tax wise, I say this because at the end of a thirty year period if you pay your home off in 12-15 years and take the mortgage payment your not paying make it available for additional investments I believe you would come out far ahead.
    For Me here is the big thing for the average consumer, Wouldnt you prefer the long term security of a home paid off?

  163. Robbie Wright,

    Would kind of fool are you? What complaints?? A total of FOUR!! And this wasn’t even about the MMA, it was their mortgage company. ALL were resolved. And we all know that the mortgage company helped THOUSANDS of people. Is that bad to you?? We all know there are people that you can never please. Get real Robbie.

    For everyone else: here is the “complaints” he so graciously posted out of stupidity.

    Customer Experience

    Based on BBB files, this company has a satisfactory record
    BBB Definition:

    satisfactory record – A business identified in our report as satisfactory has, based on Bureau files, been in business for at least one year, and has voluntarily provided the Bureau with all information requested about the business and its product or service. If any complaints have been received about the business, their number has not been considered by the BBB to be extreme, given the nature of the company’s business and the volume of business transacted. Complaints are also generally typical of what might be expected for this type of business. A business stated to be satisfactory has not been the subject of any recent law enforcement actions concerning its dealings with the public. If the business has been contacted by the BBB about its advertising or selling claims, it has modified or substantiated its practices to the Bureau’s satisfaction. In addition, the BBB has a clear understanding of the company’s business, and the business is not in an industry which has raised significant marketplace concerns.

    with the Bureau. A satisfactory record
    BBB Definition:

    satisfactory record – A business identified in our report as satisfactory has, based on Bureau files, been in business for at least one year, and has voluntarily provided the Bureau with all information requested about the business and its product or service. If any complaints have been received about the business, their number has not been considered by the BBB to be extreme, given the nature of the company’s business and the volume of business transacted. Complaints are also generally typical of what might be expected for this type of business. A business stated to be satisfactory has not been the subject of any recent law enforcement actions concerning its dealings with the public. If the business has been contacted by the BBB about its advertising or selling claims, it has modified or substantiated its practices to the Bureau’s satisfaction. In addition, the BBB has a clear understanding of the company’s business, and the business is not in an industry which has raised significant marketplace concerns.

    means a company has been in business for at least 12 months, and properly addressed matters referred by the Bureau. The company does not have an unusual volume of complaints, or any government actions involving its marketplace conduct. The Bureau understands and has no concerns about the company’s products, services and type of business.

    When considering complaint information, please take into account the company’s size and volume of transactions, and understand that the nature of complaints and a firm’s responses to them are often more important than the number of complaints.

    The Bureau processed a total of 4 complaints about this company in the last 36 months, our standard reporting period. Of the total of 4 complaints closed in 36 months, 2 were closed in the last year.

    Contract Issues
    BBB Definition:

    Contract Issues – Claim of alleged failure to honor contract or agreement, work performed without authorization, or invalid contract.

    Resolved
    BBB Definition:

    Resolved – The company resolved the complaint issues.

    2 – Company addressed the complaint issues. The consumer failed to acknowledge acceptance to the BBB.

    Billing or Collection Issues
    BBB Definition:

    Billing or Collection Issues – Claim alleging billing errors, unauthorized charges, or questionable collection practices.

    Resolved
    BBB Definition:

    Resolved – The company resolved the complaint issues.

    1 – Company resolved
    BBB Definition:

    resolved – The company resolved the complaint issues.

    the complaint issues. The consumer acknowledged acceptance to the BBB.

    Refund or Exchange Issues
    BBB Definition:

    Refund or Exchange Issues – Claim of alleged failure to honor company policy or verbal commitment to provide refunds, exchanges, or credit for products or services.

    Resolved
    BBB Definition:

    Resolved – The company resolved the complaint issues.

    1 – Company resolved
    BBB Definition:

    resolved – The company resolved the complaint issues.

    the complaint issues. The consumer acknowledged acceptance to the BBB.

    Company Management

    Additional company management personnel include:

    Mr. John Washenko – Vice President
    Mr. Jim Bagley – General Manager

    Skyler Witman and John Washenko are also officers in National Loan Servicing Center. A separate report
    BBB Definition:

    report – A summary of activity reflected in a company’s BBB file. Includes basic business background, BBB membership information, and Bureau complaint activity over the previous three years. Also reports may include any known government actions, advertising issues
    BBB Definition:

    advertising issues – Claims alleging print or electronic media advertised claims or practices misrepresent the service or product offer.

    or other information that results from activity conducted by the BBB.

    is available upon request.

    Skyler Witman and John Washeko are also owners of United First Financial. A separate report
    BBB Definition:

    report – A summary of activity reflected in a company’s BBB file. Includes basic business background, BBB membership information, and Bureau complaint activity over the previous three years. Also reports may include any known government actions, advertising issues
    BBB Definition:

    advertising issues – Claims alleging print or electronic media advertised claims or practices misrepresent the service or product offer.

    or other information that results from activity conducted by the BBB.

    is available upon request for United First Financial.

    Additional Telephone Numbers

    Additional Phone Numbers
    Tel: (800) 530-3080

  164. Robbie.. Money Merge Account is someone elses name, and therefore, are you implying that the company is “stealing” a name of another?? HAHAHAHAHAHA. Not even gonna answer your ridiculous argument Mr. Gumshoe. LOL – Money Merge Account is going nowhere and the name will never change and trust, the lawyers know a thing or two about trademarks.. Robbie = LOSER!

  165. Does anybody know if the MMA program is simply a mortgage accelerator or does it also assist in the acceleration of other debts by using a HELOC. The reason I ask is I have approximately $65,000 in debts consisting of studentloans and auto loans. Would the MMA program allow me to pay off one debt at a time (like a debt snowball program) or all at once ($65,000 with the HELOC). And, even if I could pay off the debts with the HELOC, is it a good idea to trade a HELOC interest rate for interest rates at 6% to 7%?

  166. Cory, Yes, the MMA would work very well with the debt consolidation as it is a interest/debt elemination tool. It would work either by paying one off at a time or for better results(probably) paying off all of them. You should have an analysis done because every situation is different and then you would be able to see in writing exactly what the MMA program would be able to do for you and your personal situation. There is no charge for the analysis. You have nothing to lose!

  167. Ralph,

    I will answer your question. For a mortgage with a balance in the amount of $100,000.00 and the term on the loan is for 360 months (30 yrs) with no other liabilitie’s and $0.00 dollars in discretionary income the loan would be paid of in 19.5 years and you would have saved $50,812.10. Now, that is if you are paid BI-WEEKLY. If you are paid WEEKLY then the savings for the same scenario would be 14.2 yrs and $72,753.96 in interest savings. If you are paid semi-monthly or once per month then the system apparently(based on what it told me) would not work for you. This is why we give analysis to determine the benefit because if there is not a benefit then UFF would not offer you the system, it does’nt matter if you were willing to spend $3500.00, $5000.00 or $15,000.00 on the system. You have to keep in mind that this system will “float” interest meaning it will compromise short term “Daily Interest for long term “Compounded Interest” using the line of credit. It will determine for you when and how much to distribute according the the “algorithms” that are built into the software.

    Algorithm- any systematic method of solving a certain kind of mathematical problem. This is what you pay for! UFF has never claimed that this program is for everyone. Again that is why you need to have the analysis done to see exactly how and if it could benefit you and your own personal case. Something to keep in mind though is if the client doe’s not have any discretionary income they are certainly not going to be able to pay down the mortgage balance on there own for sure. So you can see that the answer to your question, how much is the result of c)in this case it is $47,312.10 after the investment of the software. If you need any further information I will be more than happy to assist you, just send me an email with the best time to contact you.

  168. For Everyone,

    I took Ron’s advice and requested from his company (Integra Mortgage) the FREE excel spreadsheet and did receive it via email in about 4 minutes. In the spreadsheet they are using $1014.73 dollars in extra payment every month applied to principle. Well I sent them another email requesting that they compute the spreadsheet with $0.00 dollars extra payment per month due to a lack of discretionary income and I have not heard back from them yet.

    Furthermore, That spreadsheet has me a little confused.
    1.They show a discretioinary income of $1000.00
    2.They show an account with a balance of $3500.00 with a yield of 5.05% (dividend $14.72 per month)
    3.The two combined equals the extra pmt of $1014.73 according to their spreadsheet.

    The confusing part is the interest savings of $298,399.31 that his spreadsheet say’s that I would have saved and the reason I am confused is because if I made my original payments as scheduled according to my ammoritization schedule the total amount of interest would only be $231,676.37 so how can this save me the additional interest in the amount of $66,722.94?

    Ron, can you shed some light on this for me?

  169. also. as “insignificant” as it seems. For higher dollar amounts, but even for this one. That 14.73 in earnings is almost assuredly taxable, so using those numbers, just means that at some point, we’re going to have excess taxes that will probably be paid from the HELOC. THe concept, which may make sense (really a testament to that zero discretionary income spreadsheet no one seems to want to provide) is okay, but there are factors that the realistically “professional” salesperson really need to take into consideration.

  170. All i meant to say is that people like to see things work down to the Penny. 14.73 is a pretty accurate number to be working with rather than 15 bucks.

    What that means is, if you are going to be using accurate numbers, you ought to be considering all the factors. If that 14.73 was used as an expense to an investment for example, rather than paying additional principle, it would be tax deductible (assuming you were over your standard deductions, this makes a difference).

    what that means is. 14.73 * .67 (assumin a 33% tax bracket), you can only set aside 9.87 to go towards your payment, because you will be getting a tax bill for 14.73 * .33 = 4.86

    this is not a big number. But imagine it was $1000/mo in income from dividend paying stocks (i do not advise or recommend the market to an inexperianced investor, i am merely searching for 1000/mo taxable cashflow in this example).

    That 1000/mo many would say is working much better for us to pay a 1000/mo interest only mortgage on an investment property rather than paying towards our principle residence. in the case of paying another mortgage, you have a deduction for your income. In the case of paying towards principle, you should only be sending 667 towards your mortgage (you could send the entire 1000 to negate interest charges, but when you have to pay the additional 333 in taxes, you will need to pay it out of your HELOC.

    Theres plenty more, i will break it up into a second post to go into a few responses to other questions people have asked

  171. I saw it asked “Wouldnt you prefer the long term security of a home paid off?”

    this post is going to be a focus on the one word in that sentence i do not agree with. Security.

    lets start off by clearing up that the banks cannot call your note due any time they want like they could in the 20′s, so having a mortgage doesn’t mean the bank can take your house. Only missing your payment can do that, and we have discretionary income above our payments in this case, so we cannot lose our homes.

    okay, that aside, lets take a look:

    There are three tests that rank top three for almost any “average” consumer when it comes to their money.

    1. Safety (is it safe or can i lose some or all of it)
    2. Liquidity (can i get to it if i need it without paying a lot for it)
    3. Growth (is it growing. Takes money to make money right? not always, but okay, sure.

    1. is your home equity safe? people say yes, almost always. consider this:

    Brother A and B each have a $500K home. Brother A’s is paid off, brother B for simplicity, owes 100%. Lets also assume that brother B earns with the money the same 500K, the exact amount of his mortgage payment. This isn’t an argument about investments other than home equity, so lets worry about that for another time.

    both brothers have the same outgoing cashflow to their mortgage from their own earned income (income they go to work to make).

    Mr. Smith lives accross the street from Brother A and B and also has a 500K home, but he doens’t have a lot of discretionary income, in fact, he is having trouble making his payment (or something happens in his life and a change needs to be made) and he gets foreclosed upon, or needs to sell quickly to move etc.

    becasue he only paid 200K for the home when it was built, he is okay with selling for 400K because he needs to move quick.

    What happened to the Brothers.

    Brother A has a home worth 400K, so does brother B, lets not try to hide anything here. But brother B has 500K in his investment earning his payment still.

    If brother A needs 500K now to buy a house or move or anything, he needs to have another 100K stashed somewhere, because he cant pull 500K from his home.

    Brother B already has the money. Its up to him what he wants to do with it. If he wants all 500K for something, he has it, no matter what happens to the market.

    scenario 2 can be avoided for now as it relates to a natural disaster or anything of that nature. The most notable thing, Brother B always has complete control of his finances. Brother A has to ask the bank for his money, needs an income and good credit AT the time he asks for it.

    (also a key item to note is that in an event such as Hurrican Katrina, your equity line will almost definately be frozen by the bank, so if you need to get the funds then….good luck. people couldn’t, and YOU wouldn’t be able to either.
    [this has much more to do with number 2, liquidity, so I wont go further.]

    number 2: LIQUIDITY
    arguable the most important feature of your dollar.

    again, assuming you have the funds in an account earning the same rate of interest as your mortgage, you have 100% liquidity, use and control of your money. Once you give it to the bank, HELOC or not, you may not have access. Helocs can be frozen for several reasons, again the example of many homeowners during hurrican Katrina who could not access their HELOCS to buy food, pay for gas, stay in a hotel etc. If that money is in an interest bearing account, you have complete control and liquidity.

    number 3: Growth.

    Many people do not understand that home equity does not grow. By paying into you mortgage, you deduce debt, but those extra equity dollars in the home do nothing in terms of growth. in other words, the appreciation of your property is not based on what you owe, only that value of your home. Again, home equity is a dollar that you have all the potential in the world to lose, but no possibility for it to grow.

    NONE OF WHAT I HAVE SAID IS INTENDED TO SAY THAT NEGATING INTEREST FROM YOUR CASHFLOW IS BAD. I for one would much rather have an investment 100% under my control making my mortgage payment for me, that have my home paid off. I am in control of every dollar. I determine what goes where, when, and how. The bank does not dictate anything to me, not even the interest rates. (Banks don’t create those either guys. Its just a determination of what THEY get the money for and how much they need to charge to keep the lights on and the doors open)

  172. Also, one thing that keeps coming up, over and over, is people are doing ROI calculations on the $3500 cost of the MMA.

    Guys, the MMA program and a ROI calculation really ought to take into account the dollars that you are sending in extra. Yes it may help keep you disciplined paying extra dollars, but that isn’t ROI.

    the ROI for the system should be how much it would save you in interest if you use it only for one purpose, timing your payment. Other than that, you are measuring a very subjective ROI based more on how disciplined you were before and after purchasing the MMA. (this is a good time for us to remember that the MMA program is simply letting us know what we should be doing, it isn’t creating money…that would be cool.)

    I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how the exact dollar amount that you can send back to your HELOC during the month, paid on day 1 from the HELOC to the mortgage isn’t the best way? carrying a balance on the HELOC never seems like it would reduce interest, and if it did, we should just get the biggest one we can (which is a simple way we know that doens’t make sense)

  173. Wow,
    First off, Brother “A” has no mortgage in your scenario. That means he has $2916.00 a month ($35000.00 per year) liquid (assuming a 7.000% interest rate on brother B’s mtg) going somewhere other than his mortgage because he doesn’t have a mtg. Brother “B” on the other hand doe’s have a $2916.00 mtg pmt so he has to have an investment vehicle that is bringing him that kind of return on his money.
    Second, The value of a person’s home is not determined by one guy across the street having to sell his property under duress. Now, let’s pretend that the real estate market doe’s take a broader downturn and the brother that has the mortgage is now upside down and will continue to have to make his mtg pmts on a property that is losing value so now he has to make a better return than he did before to offset that or liquidate some of the money in his investment account just to be able to sell the property to stop the loss.
    Thirdly, When is the last time you had to borrow 500k? And if you truly understood lending when it comes to real estate you would understand that anybody with a home free and clear could borrow atleast up to 50% of that homes value even if they had the worst credit/ lowest income in the world. Brother “B” could not borrow against his home because it is leveraged out no matter what kind of impeccable credit or income he has.
    lastly, Growth- If i have liquid money per month because I have no mortgage expense I can take that money and grow it in a number of different way’s and still have the security of knowing that no matter what I will still have a roof over my head. Something that you have not mentioned is what if the markets take a downturn and my 500k stock portfolio is curently in a drawdown period and what if I truly did need my 500k, but at the time that i need it the value on the account is only 450k? What happens then? Furthermore, unless you money is in your hand YOU are never in control of it.

  174. Wow,

    Regarding the comment for the banks keeping their lights on and the doors open.

    That is a lot of lights and doors across the Nation not to mention the $500,000,000. million dollars that the CEO for Bank of America made last year.

  175. Wow should read ‘The Creature from Jekyll Island’ to get aquainted with the fiat monetary system we have in place before he makes comments about ‘keeping the lights on and doors open’ LOL .. -J

  176. Rich, I feel most of your response lacking one thing. having understood my comment before criticizing it.

    for example. brother A has no mortgage, so he has 2916/mo,

    brother B has a mortgage, 2916/mo paid for with the 500K he has in cash from his mortgage (from the earnings of course). This means that he has the exact same 2916 brother A MUST have as discretionary income IN ADDITION to the 2916 from his 500K. I made an assumption that he could earn the same 2916 from his investment, again not necessarily in the stock market. I am not debating this possibility as it really isn’t that relevant to the discussion. (assuming now that they have the same job and income)

    The value of Joe Across the street, along with the value of ted and mary and james next door to the brothers and Joe IS what determines the value of the home. So, as is the case in many areas, if multiple sales are made at less than current values, the value of the homes will go down. (The reason for the decline is irrelevant because they will both move the same amount. it really doesn’t even matter, again it was a stated assumption to illustrate a fall in the market).

    you said: “brother that has the mortgage is now upside down and will continue to have to make his mtg pmts on a property that is losing value so now he has to make a better return than he did before to offset that or liquidate some of the money in his investment account just to be able to sell the property to stop the loss.”

    this makes no sense and has nothing to do with the situation. The point is that at any time, Brother B can take his 500K and pay off his mortgage and be exactly where brother A is. But if that isn’t in his best interest, if he has a better use for the money, if they have a need for liquid funds, he has it whereas brother A may not. Brother B does not need to do better on his investments because the property is losing value any more than brother A. that just doesn’t make sense.

    Having put in my time at a mortgage bank, I know what it is to have to call someone, with a paid off home, or almost paid off home, who has poor credit and/or no income, and tell them their only option is limited to 50-60% of their equity and oh by the way that will be at 10-12% interest only ma’am, im very sorry to tell you. If they can qualify for that. Im sorry, but the bank doens’t want a note on your home with no payment. They want a payment from you income. people need to understand and frequently do not, a mortgage is a loan against your income, not your equity. You equity is simply what backs it up in case your income fails, that way the bank doesn’t get screwed.

    you said: “Brother “B” could not borrow against his home because it is leveraged out no matter what kind of impeccable credit or income he has.”

    That is non-nonsensical. Brother B already has the money. He wouldn’t need to leverage it. Its already under his control, so you’re point is moot.

    you said “Growth- If i have liquid money per month because I have no mortgage expense I can take that money and grow it in a number of different way’s and still have the security of knowing that no matter what I will still have a roof over my head.”

    This gets back to the beginning. you must remember, Brother B’s payment is paid by the 500K itself (in an assumed safe enviroment). Therefore the liquid money per month is something that they BOTH have. And both have the exact same security that they have a roof over their head. Brother A with no payment, and Brother B with his payment being made by his earnings on the 500K alone, and if he so chooses, at anytime, can pay off the home, although as this entire text is conveying, that wouldn’t make much sense.

    Lastly to respond to your comment, i am not recommending the money be invested in the market. I am making the assumtion that the money is in a safe investment that can return the dollars necessary to pay the mortgage expense. Therefore, the value of the account being at 450K suddenly is a moot point as well. (although a good description of the trouble and timing should brother A need the funds and the market happen to be down).

    Jason…do you really believe that banks are on a different set of rules when it comes to paying for the land, power, and employees to run their businesses than any other? you say that as if Bank of America can print more money to pay their bills.

  177. To take what has been discussed a bit further, i think it is important to consider more the homeowner working to pay off his home, not just paid off vs 100% financed.

    here is a simple example that might get some people thinking.

    two people, lets have them be sisters so we can keep this example separate.

    two sisters, same jobs, same everything, again same 500K home.

    Both purchased with 20% down, but sister A on a 30 year loan, and Sister B on an interest only.

    considering that other factors will come out in favor of sister B, i will ignore them for now and focus only on lets say 7 years down the line.

    Sister A has sent extra payments to the bank and only owes 150K now, which Sister B still owes 400K (80% or 500K) and sent those extra payments to her safe, liquid accounts, which does not matter for this example).

    If both Sisters Lose their Jobs, are in financial trouble, etc, and can not make their payments, lets take a look.

    Simple questions. Who is better off. Sister A having sent all extra payments to the bank or sister B who has that money in a fund that can pay her payment.

    Lets assume that neither can make their payments, even though sister B would be able to.

    which home does the bank want first? the one worth 500K that they are only owed 150K or the one worth 500K that they are owed 400K. so who ends up in foreclosure first. And in the real world, who keeps on making their payment from their liquid accounts until times are better. Now, if you have a HELOC, that may work for a time, but your rate of interest, and how much you have access to on your heloc could be a problem. A 15K heloc with a payment of 2916 on your mortgage (remember its not payed off yet) means 5 months of payments to find a job, but then it means at that point, 15K in debt on the heloc (lets be honest that money would be missing from sister B’s side fund) but it means NO MORE ROOM on the HELOC.

    so, is that the best thing to do. or would it be better to accumulate that money in the side fund, and pay it off instantly? the two best places to be in theory are 100% financed or paid off complete. if you owe 1% and you cant pay your payment. man is the bank okay with taking that equity. if you owe 100%, they will work with you even if you can only send them 300 bucks a month because its more than they would get by taking your house.

  178. http://www.mortgageplannersonline.com/docs%5Cmarketingresourcecenter%5Chomeequity%5CHow%20The%20Affluent%20Manage%20Home%20Equity%20Article.pdf

    take a look at this article and just look at the numbers when it comes to the mortgages. A key to remember is that you don’t need 8% in your investments to make it work, its just an example, and make sure you notice the honesty in that the interest only rate is well above the 15 year rate, and it still works out a lot better not paying the home down.

    (i don’t agree with every statement in that article, but its a good place to start).

  179. Update on the United First Financial Money Merge Account…

    One of the top 5 banks in the country is going to be publicly ENDORSING the United First Financial Money Merge Account software. They are setting up a co-branded equity line for it, as well as funding a team of their people, trained in the program, to take phone calls.

    We have now sold more than 10,000 of these, WITH a money back guarantee, with ZERO complaints in the Better Business Bureau.

    Our new VP is a former executive of ING.

    As for the MATH.. it DOES work. This is not a new concept. It has been around more than 12 years. The only thing that is new is that previously you had to do the math yourself… if you know how (see below to figure out if you would be able to do those calculations).

    Now you can buy a software tool to do it for you. Could you roof you house yourself? Of course. Have you?

    I can explain the Math to you so that you get it. I can also run you as many Analysis scenarios (backed by the money back guarantee), to show you that this does MORE than use your discretionary income. In fact, we can take someone that currently has $0 in discretionary income and still knock 8 to 11 years (on average) OFF their 30 year mortgage.

    The State of Utah audited our company a few months ago and found that the EFFECTIVE interest rates for the helocs our clients were using was a little over 3%.

    Does it make sense to borrow money at 3% to pay down a 6% loan?

    See… you could take your current budget. Whatever your current discretionary income is, we can have you invest it somewhere else if you want… such as your 401K, your kids college fund, whatever. Then… with this program… we can still build equity in your house about 25-30% faster.

    So why does it pay off faster even with ZERO discretionary dollars?

    There are 3 concepts that drive this…

    1 – Value of your stagnant – sitting around money. We all have thousands of dollars sitting in our checking account waiting to be spent. We can put the value of that money to work for you with this program.

    2 – Open-ended heloc versus closed end mortgage. If you borrow $1 from a heloc @ 10% – you pay 10 cents if you pay that dollar back the last day of the year. But put it into a 30 year mortage at the beginning of the mortgage (first 10 years) it will save you $4 to $5 in interest over the life of that loan. Does paying 10 cents to save $4-5 sound like a good idea? So let us borrow against the value of your stagment money.

    3 – Interest Cancellation. By treating your heloc like a checking account… and depositing income into it… you constantly drive down the average daily balance of that account. Primary mortgages are calculated on month end balance – helocs on average daily. If you borrow $1 at 10% interest… you only pay 10 cents if you pay it back the last day of the year. But what if you pay it back in 3 months or less? Then you are paying less than 3 cents in interest… and have an EFFECTIVE interest rate of less than 3%. By constantly washing your income through that heloc you achieve this lower effective interest rate.

    See… even if you THINK you have $0 discretionary… this program uses the 3 concepts above to FIND money. Is it CREATING MONEY? Not really… But in a way you can look at it like that… because you would never be able to do the math it takes to find these nickels and dimes. And it is TRULY just nickels and dimes. But nickels and dimes add up to dollars… which applied to a 30 year mortage at the beginning of a mortgage… saves 4 to 5 times that amount in overall interest over the life of the loan.

    All you have to do to understand this program is get someone to run an Analysis for you on numbers YOU understand. Then… use your own tools to see if you can beat the results (which would be guaranteed). If you CAN beat the Analysis… then you should not buy the software, unless you just want to save time. If you can NOT beat it… then it is a good investment for you. Of course… even if you can beat it… you will have to ask yourself if you really want to do that kind of math every month, month after month, year after year, when you could have just bought the right tool for the job.

    Anyway… national PR campaign starting this month. Bank announcement next month. Soon everyone is going to know that this works, and it is NOT a scam. It is going mainstream. Those folks that have been voicing opinions on something they really do not understand might want to get up to speed for credibility reasons.

    Most folks on this forum seem to have a braincell… and questions are well spoken and thoughtful… but on some of the OTHER forums and blogs- I have seen YAMS with more going on.

    Anyway… if anyone is curious about their numbers…or just want to do an comparison …. I can run an Analysis for you.

    Note…. there was one accurate statement I found on this blog by a skeptic. And that is that this program will not work for someone who constantly spends MORE than they make. But it does not appeal to those kinds of people. It appeals to smart money people who are a bit more disciplined.

    Other NOTE: Do other strategies work too – YES! We never try to say that investing money other places is not a good idea. However like someone pointed out… most other investments carry varying amounts of risk. The thing with this it that it is SIMPLE and EASY.

    If you can type NUMBERS IN BOXES and click a mouse… you can make this work… no math, 10 minutes a month, on average.

    Best wishes…

    407-697-8869
    http://www.u1stFinancial4u.com

  180. “One of the top 5 banks in the country is going to be publicly ENDORSING the United First Financial Money Merge Account software. They are setting up a co-branded equity line for it, as well as funding a team of their people, trained in the program, to take phone calls.”

    Wells Fargo

  181. There was a free seminar presented by Harj Gill, (creator of the mortgage accelerator concept) in Las Vegas this past Friday. Folks, DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY ON THE MMA PROGRAM. THEY SIMPLY COPIED MR. GILL’S CONCEPTS AND ARE CHARGING $3,500. Mr. Gill’s software (Speed Equity System) is virtually free and does the exact same!! The only difference is w/ MMA, you have to update the inputs more often because it operates like a check book. With Speed Equity, you simply give the software your budget and input your monthly HELOC statement everymonth. This automatically updates everything (even if you are off on your budgeted income and expenses). This is all simple math, there are no fancy math engines that make MMA special. Those of you thinking about doing the MMA program, you owe it to yourself to check out http://www.speedequity.com first. You can request to attend a free webinar this week, which is presented by Mr. Gill himself.

  182. Could someone let me know how well the MMA program will work when I start out with a large balance in my HELOC. My understanding is that you can’t get a HELOC if you already have a 2nd mortgage. I’ll need to open the HELOC and immediately pay the $60K 2nd mortgage that I have.

    The way I understand the program, you pay your 1st mortgage with a payment from the HELOC funds (say $3-5K), knock down the balance of the HELOC and start all over again.

    What happens when the HELOC balance starts out high?

  183. Tom – If you start with a large heloc balance, it will just take longer for the program to prompt you to pay extra to your first mortgage. It will wait until your heloc balance considerably low so as not to accrue unnecessary interest charges on the heloc. Be sure to get the right kind of heloc or it won’t work.

    Todd – that’s cool. I hadn’t heard of this method at all until I got involved with MMA. But now I see several that work on the same idea. I say check them all out and decide which you like the best because the principle is sound and you will pay your mortgage off faster by using them. The only ones I would be leery of are the ones that require you you refinance your entire mortgage into a variable rate line of credit and using it as a revolving account. Not because I think it’s a scam, but because I think it has a greater potential for overspending and lack of discipline.

    I checked out the website you posted but it doesn’t give a lot of info. Can you answer some of my questions? Is this a web-based program like the MMA or a disc sent to you? Can you use it for multiple properties at once or one property at a time? Can it be transfered to other properties after the first or do you have to pay again? Are there any monthly/yearly fees to pay? Is there a good visual of when your mortgage will be gone to help keep you on track?

    For the record, some people may choose to update their MMA per transaction, but I do it once per month as I get my statement in. I just verify that my heloc and mortgage statements match my MMA numbers. Takes about 15 minutes per month.

  184. Shari –
    Here is what the Speed Equity system has: Web based w/ free updates; works for every type of mortgage; $29/year to use for however long you want; tells you exactly how much interest you will save and the year/month of payoff; tells you when to transfer from HELOC to primary; tells you how much money you should transfer to save the most interest; has what if scenarios built in; has graphs; built in budget to keep you on track; has an amortization schedule of current loan compared to that of Speed Equity; access to free seminars and webinars presented by Harj Gill; backed by the 3rd largest bank in the world; soon to be endorsed by a bank in the US to help provide clients w/ getting the right HELOC; endorsed by a producer of the NBC affiliate in Vegas (I know UFF thinks this station endorsed their product, but they did not, the Saving You Money team producer is using the Speed Equity system); online forum so you can chat w/ other users of the Speed Equity system to see how you can make the system work even better for a particular situation; and money more functions.

    I’ll give you this, UFF did their homework by studying Harj Gill’s system when they developed MMA. It is essentially the exact same program. For my situation, it will take me 7.9 years to pay off my mortgage, all of my other debts, and the HELOC, and I will have saved $259,973 in interest (so this program will cost me a total of $232 – $29×8). Most MMA software updates (what if scenarios, true cost, graphs, full comparable amortization schedule ….) have been included in the Speed Equity system for years. I wonder where UFF got their ideas when they incorporated their updates (maybe they spend $29/year to keep an eye on Speed Equity??) Lastly, I don’t know this for fact, but I’ve been told that over 1,000 home owners in Las Vegas signed up for the Speed Equity program during the first week following Harj Gill’s free seminar on July 6. More and more by the day are begging for the information Harj provides, but he is only a one man show at this time. He does get some help from the producer of the NBC affiliate, but even more help is on the way. Mr. Gill has a plan, and his system will be a household name very soon.

    If you were made aware of Speed Equity prior to MMA, compared the two, I think you would have chosen Speed Equity (unless you are in it for the money, then of course MMA is the way to go). This is a serious question, how long can UFF and their MMA product last at the current cost of $3,500 if the INVENTOR of this system has virtually the same product for nearly no cost? Once the word gets out even more about Speed Equity (and it will very, very soon) I just don’t see how UFF will continue doing business as usual.

    Todd

  185. Boy, the people pushing these MMA’s sure do put out a lot of misinformation. One guy said you’ll have perfect credit and never be late on your bills, that is simply a made up story as the UFF program doesn’t automatically pay any bills, including your mortgage.

    Writing checks on your HELOC just means that instead of being able to spend all your available cash you can start spending your home equity as well. What a great idea, NOT.

    It’s a waste of money and a waste of time. You can do better than it does by just paying down your mortgage every month with your leftover cash. If you are worried about running short then nothing is stopping you from getting a HELOC, just DON’T USE IT. The interest rates on HELOCs are sky high compared to most mortgages.

    Sure are a lot of people trying to dress up a pig with some lipstick and sell it to suckers for $3500.

    Don’t be dazzled by all the numbers they throw at you, most of the people promoting these systems are financial illiterates and don’t understand simple economic or accounting principles.

    Run away from the people trying to sucker you into these schemes.

  186. Henry,

    You’re confused. “One guy said you’ll have perfect credit and never be late on your bills, that is simply a made up story as the UFF program doesn’t automatically pay any bills, including your mortgage.” OF COURSE it doesn’t pay bills for you. You always have control of your money. And the credit building technique isn’t required but used by customers simply by paying their expenses on a credit card and, since one of the keys is keeping your money in the HELOC for as long as possible, and paying it in full every month using the same money they would have used originally.

    Henry you said “writing checks on your HELOC just means that instead of being able to spend all your available cash you can start spending your home equity as well. What a great idea, NOT.” .. well duh there. No one is promoting the idea to spend all of the money on your HELOC. That is certainly not something the software program would have you do. The HELOC is merely the vehicle that drives the program and only lets you leverage money, in calculated amounts, sent to the primary mortgage and all is based on how much income you deposit into it, etc. You need to learn more about the program rather than make these childish comments.

    You said “You can do better than it does by just paying down your mortgage every month with your leftover cash.” Uh.. the typical borrower already knows they can send extra payments to principle but do they have that extra money? Alot of people do not. And the program works WITHOUT spending extra money (that you cannot recover without refinancing – which is the cost of the program right there for some).

    You said “The interest rates on HELOCs are sky high compared to most mortgages.” and if you knew anything about the product you’d know that the interest is based on average daily balance.. and the interest is not a fixed rate such as with a conventional mortgage.. the ACTUAL interest you pay on the HELOC varies but is MUCH lower than you are paying now.

    You said “Sure are a lot of people trying to dress up a pig with some lipstick and sell it to suckers for $3500.” which is a clever statement but no substance or evidence to back up such a blanket statement. You should run for office!

    You said “Don’t be dazzled by all the numbers they throw at you, most of the people promoting these systems are financial illiterates and don’t understand simple economic or accounting principles.”… what like YOU, Henry?

    You said “Run away from the people trying to sucker you into these schemes” .. well I’d ask the satisfied customers what they think as well. I don’t hear them complaining.. only people like you are ARE NOT AWARE OF HOW THIS WORKS!

    Ignorance abound..

  187. Todd – thanks for all the info on the Speed Equity System. It is almost identical to the money merge account as you said. Why has it taken so long for it to be known? If Harj Gill has been around for years, you would think that more people would have heard of him. I know he is only one person, but he must have been lacking something in his product to prevent him from being mainstream.

    I’ve never seen the Speed Equity System but I have seen the Money Merge Account and I have also seen the Saving You Money Team’s clip from the NBC Affiliate out of Vegas. The system they are showing is most definitely the Money Merge Account. It shows the name and it’s identical to the first version of the software that I had (before the last upgrade). It even says that it costs $3500. They do show a book saying that the original idea came from Australia – is that Speed Equity? Was he not known in the US because he is Australian and wasn’t promoting the product over here?

    Either way, the idea of using a heloc as a checking account to accelerate your mortgage payoff without changing your spending habits is awesome. If I had heard of Speed Equity first I may have purchased it instead, but I am very pleased with my MMA. The agent who sold us the system is wonderful and has been helpful and professional every step of the way. I hope UFF has more agents like him, because he is a great representative for their company.

  188. Shari
    I believe Harg Gill introduced his product in the United States in 2002. He is very well known in Australia and Europe, where he first introduced his concepts in 1995. I don’t know why he has not aggressively taken his product to the mainstream in the U.S. I think he knows the success UFF is having w/ their product and maybe feels he is partially responsible for it, (since UFF used his concept). All I can tell you, Speed Equity will be a household name very soon. Harj Gill is working behind the scenes to empower people about his concepts. Major financial institutions endorse his products (another major endorsement may be coming soon). It is growing like wild fire. Since March 2006, UFF has around 15,000 customers scattered about the U.S. Since July 2007, Harj Gill has over 1,000 customers in one city alone! People are begging to belong to his newly created forum. This week alone, Harj is presenting three free advanced training sessions for his members. Regarding the Saving You Money Team’s clip from the NBC Affiliate out of Vegas, only the first clip was about the MMA product. If you watched the other 4 clips, they were distancing themselves from MMA and the producer is now helping Harj Gill promote Speed Equity. I know this because the producer attends the free online webinars and describes his situation w/ the product. Yes, both Speed Equity and MMA are very good programs. If you are not interested in selling MMA (becoming an agent) and just want to pay off your existing mortgage and other debts, then Speed Equity seems to be the logic choice. If you feel you can benefit from selling MMA and turn around a profit, then MMA is for you.

  189. Todd,

    The reason that Harj’s business has exploded in Las Vegas was because of the scam that was perpetrated on the viewers of KVBC. The Saving You Money Team reporter did the story on Money Merge Account and knew it. He even closes the broadcast by saying that he has been “test driving” the program himself along with two other reporters. Then, lo and behold, Harj pops up in subsequent broadcats and the reporte says whoa, don’t spend $3500, we’ll get it for you for free, just e-mail us. Harj got thousands of free leads because UFirst agents directed their prospects to the news station website and then KVBC pulled a bait and switch.

    Harj is not the eventer of the concept. The National Bank of Australia came out with the idea over 20 years ago; long before Harj Gill. In the UK Virgin and Royal Bank of Scotland rolled out the (Virgin) One Account in 1997… I don’t think Harj Gill was at the Board meeting.

    UFirst has never alleged that they originated the concept. The algorithms in the software are unique and proprietaty to UFirst and were not copied from anyone. There are many ways to skin a cat and math is math. If I want the answer “10″ I can multiply, divide, subtract, add. I can use many different starting numbers and still get the answer of ten: 2×5, 3+7, 15-5.

    You can go with Speed Equity if you like, but I promise you that you will not get the customer support and coaching that you’ll get from UFirst and the UFirst guys haven’t been embroiled in the numerous lawsuits Harj has. There is an old expression that goes like this: “You get what you pay for.”

  190. Todd,

    I forgot to mention that Jim Snyder from KVBC is helping Harj Gill is that he let it slip in one of the subsequent broadcasts to the original story on MMA that he had a vested interest in Harj’s success.

    I thought reporters were supposed to report, not get paid as a lead generator.

  191. Why has Harj been in so many lawsuits?? Is it because of a defective product? I just placed an order to see what it does and compare the two and I haven’t received the online software or anything other than a mailing list he is sending and two copies of his book last week of August… so I wonder if he just didn’t take my money for his “defense fund” .. maybe Todd can elaborate??

  192. Typo in my earlier posts. Harj is not the INVENTOR. KVBC did the original story on MMA and implied the $3500 fee was a value considering the $300,000+ savings the subject homeowner was to achieve. In the “subsequent” broadcasts Jim Snyder in effect bashes the idea that someone else is trying to make money from Harj’s concept. If Jim Snyder was on Speed Equity from the start, why even do a piece about MMA? It seems as though there was an agenda and not investigative journalism.

    Oh, by the way, I think someone else created “math” and it was before Harj Gill’s time.

  193. I believe the lawsuit has to do w/ his divorce and the rights to his software property. To get around the rights to his software, his wife, (or ex wife) appears to have renamed her version High Speed Equity system. I don’t believe Jim Snyder is the one helping Harj (maybe he is, but not publicly), rather it is Jim Snyder’s producer. Bryan, you are absolutely correct in stating “There are many ways to skin a cat and math is math. If I want the answer “10″I can multiply, divide, subtract, add. I can use many different starting numbers and still get the answer of ten: 2×5, 3+7, 15-5.” That is why I chose to pay $29 per year for Speed Equity (total $232) and you paid $3,500 for MMA. Why? Jason, if you give me your numbers that you had ran for your MMA analysis, I will plug them into the Speed Equity and post the results here. You don’t even have to tell me the result of your MMA analysis prior to knowing what the results are from Speed Equity. If you really want, I can send you your Speed Equity “analysis” via email, just so you don’t thing I’m full of it. If you save more than $3,000 w/ MMA vs. Speed Equity, you did the right thing, but if you did not, I would hope you would be honest and post the results. When I compared the two for myself, the payoff date was the same, 7.9 years. Again, Speed Equity, like MMA, tells you exactly when to make a lump sum payment, you can see the results in real time and it keeps you on the right path, sort of like a dashboard in a vehicle :) I agree w/ Shari, no matter what side of the fence you stand on this issue (Speed Equity or MMA), the concept is great!

  194. Todd,

    The Speed Equity system uses an HSBC account accoring to the website. Is there a specific name of this equity line they have or is it just HSBC’s basic HELOC? Also, as Jason V states, the site offers the software and books to be delivered in August, but no phone numbers to follow up on or e-mail that works in order to find out when you would actually get the software to use for comparison purposes. Any idea how to contact them?

  195. Todd,

    Before I get the numbers please give a contact for Harj because I ordered the software book bundle and I have not received the software!!

  196. Jason

    Was you credit card account charged? If so, you should have received an email w/ your access codes. Check your spam mail as well. According to the bulk emails I receive from Harg Gill, he still has over 300 orders to set up and he is in federal court this week. It appears he is nearly done w/ his court issues and was awarded to receive his property rights back as of yesterday. I don’t have any contact info for HG, but you may have luck trying info@speedequity.com or enews@speedequity.com. If those don’t work, sign up for one of his free webinars and ask him personally. Hundreds of people sign up to these webinars, so I would think somebody could help you out. Or, I’m sure you could find the contact info for HG by contacting KVBC.

  197. Todd,
    I am a strong proponent of “free enterprise.” The more competitors the merrier. Let the public decide. You chose speed equity. That’s great. I have nothing against someone having a product and marketing it successfully based on its own merits.

    I do take issue with scams,lies and deceit. Harj Gill is portraying himself as the inventor of the concept, which is false. HSBC is giving away Harj’s book because he struck a strategic alliance with them to give them loan business, not because they recognize him as the “guru.” KVBC had no business doing a story on a MMA homeowner, reporters saying that they were on the product themselves and then promoting/endorsing another product. At the time Harj Gill was on the sequel broadcasts, he was still entangle in legal matters and had no business being on TV. He is still selling “Vaporware” since he has not officially gotten the legal right to sell his product.

    In addition, you mentioned in a previous post that Harj is “a one man show.” So, what about customer service? Follow up? The product actually being delivered?

    If you really are looking for price, there are guys all over the internet offering something “just like the MMA” for as little as $99. As a matter of fact, you can contact blogger Ralf from Integra Mortgages who has a “free” product that does the same thing.

    Haven’t you wondered how he can charge so little? I mean, I can buy something just like MS Office for $79 at Office Depot, but it isn’t the same, no matter what the box says. C’mon Todd, you sound like a smart guy, use a little common sense, heh?

  198. Bryan

    All I can say at this time is Speed Equity WILL be a household name soon. I wish I could elaborate more at this time, but negotiations are still taking place from what I understand. Like I said in my previous post, I will gladly run your numbers so you can see just how my “$79 MS Office” software compares to MMA. I hope one of you UFF agents will afford me this opportunity. It was even for me, 7.9 years for both.

  199. Regarding Speed Equity, I just want my product or I am reversing the charge on Friday that’s all I know!! I ordered on Monday and no email replies to my requests for an explanation. This product isn’t legit it appears. I’d sue him but he’s already gonna be broke after this lawsuit… this stuff happens all the time with people who are so full of themselves they peddle a product, get arrested, and you never hear from them again and even continue to have a cult following from blogs their leader writes from jail, (see the Dorean Group) on and on..

  200. I’m just angry in my above post but I’m pissed.. but eh.. for all I know Todd IS Harj (or wife!) – LOL

  201. Ah, the power of Google.

    Gill v. American Mortgage Educators Inc et al
    Plaintiff: Harjit Gill
    Defendant: American Mortgage Educators Inc, Lisa Jane Rosenberger, Perfecto Bobadilla and Robert Rosenberger

    AND GUESS WHAT? Lisa Rosenberger sells her product at this website (for a price of $250 or a CD VERSION ON JULY 27, 2007 for $350) ..

    the link to the OTHER product can be found if you click my name above

  202. I’d be pissed to if you were actually charged and did not receive the software access. Jason, your right. I think Lisa may be his wife (or ex). Last week she titled her software “High Speed Equity” system. They are the exact same thing, and this is what is being litigated in the federal court. Harj just won a battle and has received all the rights to his property from american mortgage educators. If you ordered a book from Harj, I would think you should be receiving it any day since it is now his sole possession. Jason, the Speed Equity system is ligit, Just like MMA is ligit. Provide me contact information and I’ll show you the Speed Equity software and plug in your numbers. After all, it is just simple math.

  203. Todd,

    You said the payoff date is the same. Did you know that depending on the timing of the transfers you can pay off in the same time but still pay more in interest?

    I don’t need a side by side comparison w/ Speed or Hi-Speed or 5th Gear or Rollin’ down the hill Equity. I will tell you the fundamental difference:
    The founders of UFirst have never been in a lawsuit and they started this company to make a difference in peoples lives, not just make a buck.
    What $3500 buys you is customer service and free upgrades for life. There is no way for $250 that Harj can offer any sort of customer service. Not to mention that he is recruiting “agents.” How on earth is there any money to pay someone a commission on so little revenue?

    The bottom line is that, so far, there is nothing to show for all of Harj’s hype. In many of the articles I have read about him, he is touted as a “consumer advocate.” What kind of consumer advocate is in constant “pre-launch” mode for a product? He had no business doing seminars, appearing on the news or taking any money whatsoever until his legal todos were finished. I believe you when you say Speed Equity will be a household name… just like ENRON.

  204. While I would easily agree that this program works.. I remember when you mentioned that the payoff dates matched. This is fine and dandy but since the money-back guarantee is based on those numbers , it is purposely a conservative estimate..and many are on pace to pay off (I’m reading the latest Broker Banker article this month on United First Financial) 20% sooner! So WOW.

  205. I think Bryan pretty much justified why I am happy with MMA. Todd, the program may work better than what homeowners are currently doing (paying min pymnt every month as most of us do) and also utilizes the HELOC to accomplish the amazing results when we put our money to work for us.. but I don’t see the customer service, clean track record, and 20% faster payoff time potential, money-back guarantee, and let me repeat – customer service!! that only United First Financial provides Todd!

  206. Keep it coming, that’s all fine and dandy. Like I previously posted, there is a master plan taking place as I write. Just be sure to tune in to CNBC in the upcoming months. Read the upcoming issues in Money Magazine. Keep an eye on Bank of America. Take interest in Suzy Orman and Microsoft Money. May want to glance at the web site of the National Association of REALTORS in the near future. No stones are being left unturned. WOW!

  207. Todd, are you anticipating this will create a business opportunity for distributors or what (how when then product is so cheap)? And where are you getting this information because the webinars were cancelled this week due to Harj’s court appearance and the newsletters mention none of this… and I still have no software or login info and NO RESPONSE TO MY EMAILS the speed quity emails (I’ve tried them all).. hmmm…

  208. What I see is a company I can work for, United First Financial, (and get paid well for) AND HELP PEOPLE (not “help”) but actually HELP PEOPLE GET OUT OF DEBT AND IMPROVE THEIR QUALITY OF LIFE. That’s awesome. No other product can offer this…

  209. Why did I just get an email from him yesterday that the webinars had to be cancelled (even states 7/18)??

  210. Tonights may be cancelled, you’ll have to just check around 7pm. I beleive the topic (case study) will be covering multiple investment properties. There were a couple UFF agent lurkers attending last night. You be sure to give Harj hell.

  211. Todd, now I’m skeptical again.. you said yesterdays was not cancelled when I have an email that states it was and now tonights will be cancelled? And I don’t care about multiple investment properties.. I don’t have ‘em – I NEED MY FRIGGIN LOGIN INFO OR I’M RESCINDING MY ORDER I PLACED ON MONDAY
    !!

  212. I just filed a complaint via PayPal since Speed Equity sure ain’t speedy and hasn’t delivered with the “inventor” Harj Gill bogged down in a lawsuit..

  213. Jason V,

    I would contact your credit card company and dispute the charges. Harj is BROKE. The books are on backorder because he has no money to print them. He has zero people in “customer support.” He has zero financial backing. I am curious about all of these strategic alliances Todd seems to have so much inside scoop on. Sounds like someone’s selling wolf tickets.

    Here’s how the Speed program works: This came from a real person on his webinar (which had about 1,000 people on it)…to digress for a minute: how do you answer questions from 1000 people on a webinar? Anyway, here was the question: There was a guy who said he had 2 years worth of income as his available line of credit- how much should he transfer to the first mortgage? The answer: 2 months worth of income. If the guy makes $10,000/month that would be $20,000 from the HELOC. If he has only $200 in discretionary income, that means it would take him 100 months to pay back the HELOC. That formula is a recipe for disaster.

    TRUTH- MMA is the ONLY mortgage accelerator software that is DYNAMIC and uses proprietary algorithms to determine the precise dollar amount and timing with zero risk.

  214. Better yet, file your complaint w/ the BBB! That way there will be a paper trail left behind.

  215. Jason V.,

    You are wise to cancel. Harj is BROKE. He has no financial backing and personally can’t support his business. The books are back ordered because he can’t afford to have them printed. His customer support staff: ZERO. His IT Dept. staff: ZERO.

    I wonder where Todd is getting this inside scoop on all of Harj’s new strategic alliances. Sounds like someone’s selling wolf tickets.

    A real prospect on on e of Harj’s webinars asked how much he should transfer from his HELOC if the HELOC was equal to two years income. Harj told him 2 months. Now, if his income was $10,000/mo. then he would transfer $20,000. Now presume that his discretionary income is only $200. That means that it would take him 100 months to pay down the HELOC using that method. THAT is a recipe for disaster.

    MMA is the ONLY mortgage acceleration software that uses strategic proprietary algorithms to take variable situations into consideration and give the homeowner the most optimal results with ZERO Risk.

  216. He probably was talking about the initial injection. The initial injection is $2,000 to $3,000 greater than your monthly net income. Regarding subsequent injections, the software does not recommend you spend more than 30% of HELOC in finance charges for ultimate results. The software accounts for every variable and adjusts the payoff balance accordingly. As soon as you make a withdraw from the HELOC, your payoff balance changes. As soon as you make a deposit, your payoff balance changes. If you decide to spend $5,000 on a vacation, the software calculates the true cost of how that $5,000 effects the payoff and the added interest to the mortgage. The what if scenarios are great. I really like the side by side comparison of the amortization schedule too. It’s really an ah-haw moment to see just how much you are saving. Bryan, I just hope he finds a way to make enough money to keep his business alive because I find the software very helpful. I guess I could always purchase the CD version from his ex if something happens to him. But, I’d probably just fork out the $3,500 and not have any worries. Jason, you know what you should do, since it appears your being screwed by Harj, go buy his ex’s CD version and you can always compare MMA w/ theirs. Maybe you’ll have a perspective client say to you, I’ve heard of that Harj guy and he says I can do the same thing for about $200. You would be equiped w/ that handy dandy CD, plug in the numbers, and tell your prospective client, hell no, here is the $3,300 difference…. I hope I’m not confusing any of you. Jason, if you provide your personal email, I will send you something you will like.

  217. Jason – Thursday night seminar is a go. 7-9 PST. I hope you get your situation cleared up. If not, there will be over 500 people listening, so sound off (write off in this case)

  218. I love how people always say “You don’t have to pay $3500 bucks if you can do it yourself” Really, then I ask you–do you cut your own hair?do you mow your own lawn? do you do your own taxes? do you eat fast food or go out to dinner?

    All of these things you could do on your own, right?

    But you don’t..why? Because it is easier for us to put these things in the hands of professionals. People that do it for a living and you can trust them to take care of your needs.

    Another question, have you spent $3500 on the things above? Not in a lump sum, but over the course of your life, have you done that? I’d say yes. And what have you gotten from all of those things…maintenance. You keep paying over and over again.

    With the MMA you pay $3500 for a program you will have for LIFE…Let’s say you live for 50 years, do the math…$6 a month. What?? That’s a Whopper Meal, supersized with a Coke and onion rings people…I love it, but I’ll take the software and lose a little bit of flubber in the meantime :)

  219. Oh…I’ve been on the program for 8 months and I love it. I sleep well at night know that I got ripped off for 3500 bucks and I know that I was projected to payoff in 7.8 years and now I open up my account and I see I am going to pay off in 7.3 years…that really sucks. Before I got into the program, I was on pace to pay off the house in 28 years!
    BTW, I could also lose weight by running around the block everynight…instead I go to the gym and have a personal trainer. But I’m wasting money there too…but I still love Whoppers :)

  220. Actually…I was wrong. Don’t do the program. Do it yourself, pay off your house in 8 years, and have fun crunching numbers and trying to find a way to do this the most EFFECTIVELY.
    Meanwhile I’ll use my $3500 program and just punch in my numbers and let it do the work…just like I do when I get off my fat behind and step up to the counter and order an extra value meal instead of making some fresh burgers at the house for more than half the cost…

  221. Could someone please answer me this.

    I keep reading that even if you have ZERO extra money per month, you will still pay off you mortgage sooner.

    how can you do this?

    Lets say I owe 180k at 6% on a 30 yr fixed and I am at the first payment on year 4.

    I make 4k per month and spend 100% of it every month. How much sooner will I pay my mortgage off?

    Lets now say I have 500 dollars extra every month? Now how much sooner will I pay my mortgage off?

    If I just sent the 500 dollars to my mortgage company myself every month would I pay it off in the same amount of time vs using the MMA program?

    Please help. I don’t understand how you can pay off your mortgage sooner without any extra money.

  222. Sean, here’s an explanation from appleday over at fat wallet:

    So why does it pay off faster even with ZERO discretionary dollars?

    There are 3 concepts that drive this…

    1 – Value of your stagnant – sitting around money. We all have thousands of dollars sitting in our checking account waiting to be spent. We can put the value of that money to work for you with this program.

    2 – Open-ended heloc versus closed end mortgage. If you borrow $1 from a heloc @ 10% – you pay 10 cents if you pay that dollar back the last day of the year. But put it into a 30 year mortage at the beginning of the mortgage (first 10 years) it will save you $4 to $5 in interest over the life of that loan. Does paying 10 cents to save $4-5 sound like a good idea? So let us borrow against the value of your stagment money.

    3 – Interest Cancellation. By treating your heloc like a checking account… and depositing income into it… you constantly drive down the average daily balance of that account. Primary mortgages are calculated on month end balance – helocs on average daily. If you borrow $1 at 10% interest… you only pay 10 cents if you pay it back the last day of the year. But what if you pay it back in 3 months or less? Then you are paying less than 3 cents in interest… and have an EFFECTIVE interest rate of less than 3%. By constantly washing your income through that heloc you achieve this lower effective interest rate.

    See… even if you THINK you have $0 discretionary… this program uses the 3 concepts above to FIND money. It is truly just nickels and dimes. But nickels and dimes add up to dollars… which applied to a 30 year mortage at the beginning of a mortgage… saves 4 to 5 times that amount in overall interest over the life of the loan.

  223. I am confused about how this concept works with zero discetionary income. I have seen the post that Robert submitted, but it still does not make sense.

    I even had a UFF agent run the numbers for me and I pay my 30 year mortgage off in in 14.5 years. Unfortunately the agent could not give me an explanation of how it works except for saying the same thing Robert posted.

    I am really interested in the concept, but could someone please show me on paper how this concept works with zero discretionary income.

  224. Justin,
    Maybe this will help:

    Assume that you make $5,000 net income per month. Let’s say that you use a credit card to pay all of your bills during the month (you probably cannot pay all, but most). Let’s assume all of those bills run up to $5,000. You have nothing left (ZERO discretionary income).

    Now, let’s (for analogy purposes) deposit your income into a 1% savings account with interest compounding daily instead of a 0% checking account like most Americans have.

    OK. Beginning of the month. You deposit your paycheck into the savings account. You pay all of your bills using the credit card.

    Middle of the month. You deposit another paycheck. Now this money is earning interest compounding daily.

    Beginning of month 2: you deposit another paycheck. It is now adding principal on top of principle on top of the interest. You pay your bills on the credit card again.

    Middle of the month. You deposit your paycheck again. You pay your credit card for the balance owed on month 1. No finance charges assessed (maybe some airline mileage points accrued).

    Technically, if you perpetuate the float of the credit card and deposit your income this way, it is the equivalent of putting the starting $5,000 in the bank and leaving it there to compound. Over 30 years the interest gained would be about $1,750

    Now, that’s nothing to shout about considering taxes and inflation, but the point is that you captured the time-value of your money. It is as-if you created $1,750 without having any original principal to save. Now imagine being able to cancel interest at a rate of 6%– That is equivalent to your $5,000/month paying down over $30,000 in mortgage interest over the life of the loan.

    One additional principal: Your monthly bills are your monthly bills. If you get paid weekly, you get 4 extra pay periods a year. If you get paid bi-weekly the an extra 2 pay periods. If you didn’t indiscriminately spend that money, then that becomes “discretionary income” as well.

    Hope that makes sense.

  225. Ralf, Sean & Justin

    You cannot pay off your mortgage faster without any discretionary income. The MMA is only generating a very, very tiny amount of “extra” money by running all your transactions through the Heloc. If you put all your income in a can as you are paid, and then pay all your monthly expenses including the mortgage out of this, and then simply send in any additional income you have when you feel comfortable, you will come out ahead of the MMA. The reason why is because the MMA will cost you $3,500 plus the interest on the Heloc; a cost you don’t otherwise have. The magic use of the HELOC won’t generate enough income to overcome all the costs. I am not on the program, and I don’t have to be to understand that it isn’t worth much, unless you want to buy a system to remind you to do what I’ve already described above. Also, the timing and amount of extra funds you send to your mortgage per the system is relatively insignificant, compared with doing it on your own. The large amounts of time and money you can save on your mortgage are very possible, but whatever you do, you’re still going to be footing almost all of the cost yourself by finding ways to cut your expenses. A big push with this program is that you don’t have to change your standard of living, however many supporters right here in these posts admit that it only works with discretionary income. This is coming from someone who was also interested in finding out how this program could work. I have no other interest here besides providing clear factual information. For more info on why the HELOC is almost useless, read the posts by thetruthbetold on the UFF thread on Scam.com.

  226. Chris,

    I just love blogs. Do you know that if you go to a website like bankrate.com they have numerous articles by “experts” that all have differing opinions about a topic, such as whether it is even better to pay down your mortgage faster at all. All of them have degrees up the wazoo and have numerous years of experience in their fields.

    It’s amazing the variety of opinions by people with no identity and no background other than what they read on another blog!

    UFirst never claims that this is a cookie cutter solution for everyone. I have done numerous analysis’ and the program is not beneficial for some. For a few, paying extra to their mortgage is better than MMA, for most, the MMA beats anything else out there hands down.

  227. Chris,

    I have been researching MMA for about a month now and I am still somewhat undecided about the software. I have seen the thread from truthbetold, which you mentioned and seen many other threads of people bashing MMA. Yet, not one person that has used the program has complained openly on forums or to the BBB.

    I dont know how factual these numbers are, but I keep seeing between 8,000-10,000 units being sold on blogs. If these numbers are true and their have been zero complaints, how bad can it be. In fact it almost seems too good. Can you come up with any reasoning for MMA having zero complaints with this many users?

    By the way thanks for the anagolgy Bryan, but I am still not 100% clear.

  228. The above posts from Bryan and Jason V don’t surprise me at all. I am not bashing them or the MMA, yet they begin by bashing me. Here are some of the common statements I see made about the program and why they are in error.
    1. And I doubt some free spreadsheet is as easy to use as the MMA software. I HATE MATH!
    Jason V @ 1:00 pm June 26th, 2007
    You don’t need a spreadsheet to beat the MMA. Just do what I outlined in my first post.

    2. The UFF software will save you way more money than if you took every penny of your discretionary income and threw it at your mortgage. For one of my clients… the software beat the scenario of throwing every penny of their discretionary income at their mortgage by SIX years and $48,000. That is HUGE… and while I would never say that a super smart math person could not get close – if they knew how to do the math… 99% of us could not without this tool.
    Benjamin @ 2:48 pm June 28th, 2007

    The above statement is simply not true. You will beat the system by throwing the same amount of your discretionary income at your mortgage that you would in the MMA, and you don’t need to be smart at math at all to do it. I will elaborate on this below.

    3. Ralf if you are one of those people who wants to know every variable in the program, basically figuring out the program’s secrets (no one will) then you will be on the fence for quite a while. Good luck.
    Jason V @ 8:37 am June 29th, 2007

    Sorry, there are no secrets to the program.

    And for all the spreadsheet gurus… I don’t care who you are. MMA will beat your formulas – 99% of the time. And I can depend on the program. The only naysayers are the ones who aren’t on the program. Just my opinion through careful observation.
    Jason V @ 9:29 am June 29th, 2007

    Again, you don’t need a spreadsheet, and you don’t need formulas. What I outlined in my first post will beat the MMA 100% of the time.

    Justin, zero complaints from users, proves nothing about what the program actually does and doesn’t do for you. A lot of things appear to be “as good as it gets” until you finally come to terms with all of the details. The reason they are claiming that the program beats what you can do on your own is because they are misleading you about your monthly and discretionary income. The software assumes your monthly income is 4 times your weekly income but when it actually applies the income to your loan balance they use the correct number, which is 52 times your weekly income divided by 12. The reason they do this is to understate your discretionary income so it doesn’t look like much money out of pocket. They use a higher discretionary income than they print on their analysis form, which make you think their system is far better than just paying the same extra amount on your own.

  229. Chris,

    I don’t know how you sleep at night. First of all, I never “bashed” you. I simply stated that the so called experts even have varying opinions on financial matters, so a blogger is just another person with an opinion. I wonder why you find that offensive.

    In addition, your statements are downright lies. How can you make a statement that presumes someone is a liar about how they represent their product when you weren’t there? If Benjamin, for example, did a comparison of the MMA analysis and a mortgage calculator with extra payments and found the MMA to outweigh the direct payments, then who are you to say that that is not true?

    It’s okay to be skeptical. It’s okay to have a contrary opinion and it’s okay if you don’t buy a MMA. But making character assassinations means that you lack character. You said you weren’t bashing anyone or the program but hypocritically make comments that imply we are confusing the truth to get people to buy something they don’t need.

    The truth is that people overspend their budgets. People are beholden to debt because they can’t break the cycle. People regularly overdraw their checking accounts because of Debit Cards. As a country we have a negative savings rate for the first time since the Great Depression. Only about 8% of homeowners make extra principal payments on a continual basis.

    I HAVE ONE QUESTION FOR YOU CHRIS AND EVERYONE ELSE THAT MAKES THE ASSERTIONS YOU HAVE:
    Other than sitting at a computer blogging about how we are somehow selling snake oil, WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO CHANGE THE FINANCIAL CLIMATE IN THIS COUNTRY FOR THE BETTER???

  230. Chris simply put – you don’t know what you are talking about. You make assertions without really knowing WHY a HELOC leveraging the banks money is used in addition to discretionary income to pay off your mortgage in as little as a THIRD of the time. Simply sending your discretionary income to your mortgage principle is a lifestyle change in that you can never get that money BACK (unless you refi)! But you are missing that discretionary AND leveraging the banks money on your line of credit is also KEY! Do you not see the advantages in creating a valuable liquid investment when you use a HELOC with the Money Merge Account and have money available to you at all times and the benefits that are enjoyed when paying your mortgage FIRST and then paying bills (and taking into consideration floating money)? Can you do this without any spreadsheet and pay off as quick as you would via Money Merge Account by simply sending in discretionary once a month? LOL – most of the time.. NO!

    You simply don’t understand bank products NOR how finance works and YOU are not able to pay off your mortgage in as little as we are without sending extra money out of your checking and NEVER getting it back unless you REFI!

    You use your paycheck to offset interest calculation and you just pay your bills as usual! NO LIFESTYLE CHANGES! People are reluctant to send in all their extra money because WHAT IF THEY NEED IT!!

    Instead of refinancing and rolling over thousands in fees to get into MORE debt..we are offering this product for $3500 and rolled into the HELOC to get you OUT of debt .. basically you use the banks money to pay for it and most people recoup this cost in 3-5 months.

    Chris! PAY ATTENTION to the principles of using a HELOC and the CAM mortgages in Australia, etc. YOU CANNOT DO THIS WITHOUT A HELOC if you don’t want any lifestyle changes!!

  231. Jason V,

    I’m well aware of everything you are saying and it does not change a thing. Yes, I can do exactly what you are saying and still come out ahead of the program, and I can do this without a HELOC. If you are paying down your mortgage faster, it is coming almost completely from lifestyle changes. The money you are saving by using the HELOC(which is also offset by the price of the software) is a tiny, tiny amount and it has little relation to the large amounts of interest you are saving on your home.
    Who cares what they are doing in Austrailia. The standard fixed loan there is 1 to 5 years-maybe 15 at best, and the interest rates are higher as well.

  232. Bryan

    I sleep great at night knowing that I share exactly how the system works as opposed to the alternative, and I don’t have anything to hide. What I have said has nothing to do with character assassination. I haven’t told anyone not to use the program. If that is what they decide to do, then that is there choice.

    Different points of view from investment professionals with degrees up the wazoo also has no bearing on what we are talking about. What I have outlined is not a matter of opinion. The numbers in the program are being fudged. They are right when they say that it is just math. It is math, but it is not complicated, and the math argument can be used both ways when it is used fairly.

    I don’t need to be “there” every time an analysis is done to know that the program will not “outweigh the alternative of direct payments”.

    To help change the financial climate in this country, I provide fair, honest information so others can make educated decisions. This is far better than saying nothing at all. Sometimes I lead courses on debt and budgeting, and they are always free. There seems to be a real misconception out there that somehow consumer debt is expected and unavoidable. That is a myth. Here is some advice that a lot of people could use. Spend less and save more.

    Some of the most common pros I hear regarding the MMA program is that “it beats the alternative every (or 99% of the) time, and that it can be accomplished with no discretionary income. That is simply not true. It never beats the alternate when the same numbers are used, and it always uses discretionary income.

  233. Chris and others,

    Why do you need a HELOC you might ask?

    You need the HELOC because the program is using more than your own money to pay off your debts. The program also utilizes the bank’s money to pay down the debts. The HELOC is also an open-ended loan which allows you to use ALL of your money (entire paycheck) for a given period of time, until it is needed to pay monthly expenses. No other system will do this.

    This is probably one of the most misunderstood parts of the program, yet one of the most important factors. Many people feel that the program works solely on the discretionary. That is not true. Although the discretionary income is a very large part of the program, there is something else happening at the same time, which is only accomplished by using the HELOC. The Money Merge Account program uses mathematical calculations to determine when to transfer lump sums of money from the HELOC to the principal on your 1st mortgage and exactly how much, to the penny. When the money is taken from the HELOC, that means that you are borrowing from a higher interest rate (HELOC) to pay down a lower interet rate (1st mortgage). But, then you deposit your paychecks into the HELOC, bringing that balance back down so that you are paying less interest on the HELOC and therefore saving more money on the 1st mortgage in interest than you are paying on the HELOC. The discretionary kicks in and gets that HELOC down to the optimal balance (determined by the MMA program) so that another transfer will take place. This will save you more money in interest thanif you were to just take whatever discretionary income you had left at the end of the month and apply that towards your 1st mortgage although that would show amazing results(but then again many people would be wise not to send all their extra money away into a closed end mortgage – not easily recoverable!). Again, the goal too is no change in your current lifestyle.

    Again, Chris, the cost is relative. First of all, people are saving as much as tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars by utilizing the Money Merge Account. Even if they are able to save $35,000, that is a 1,000% return on initial investment in the form of interest savings. And if they save $350,000 (not an uncommon event), that is a 10,000% return on inital investment in the form of interest savings. And if they realize that savings over a 12 year term, that is an average of 833% annual return on initial investment in the form of interest savings. And to top that off, it is a guaranteed savings as long as their income, expenses, etc stay the same or get better. $3500 is saved within 3-5 months for most people.

    Last of all, the $3,500 cost of the product is not paid out of the client’s checking account, but usually taken directly from the HELOC. In other words, the bank is lending them the money to purchase the program that will then save them large sums of money in the form of interest savings. This method of payment should result in no change in lifestyle! People will often roll the closing costs of a refi into their loan (which is quite often more than $3500). We offer the same thing, only instead of doing it for the purpose of accumulating debt, we offer it in order to become FREE OF DEBT.

  234. Also!

    Using a credit card with the Money Merge Account system can both dramatically increase your results and allow you to enjoy added benefits.

    First, understand that the interest rate on a credit card, if used properly with the Money Merge Account, is irrelevant. That is because, if the card is paid in full at the end of every month, no interest has to be paid to the credit card company.

    The Money Merge Account is most effective if the client’s money is deposited into the HELOC and allowed to sit there as long as possible. This minimizes the amount of interest that accumulates on the HELOC, thus allowing more of the deposited money to go toward principal. If a credit card is used to pay most of the debts throughout the month (utility, gas, groceries, entertainment, etc.), then the balance in the HELOC stays lower for a longer period of time, resulting in less interest accumulation. Then, when the credit card bill is received, it is paid in full with money from the HELOC. No interest is paid on the credit card because it is paid in full at the end of every billing cycle.

    Also, be sure to shop for the credit card that wil return the greatest value for you. For instance, if you like to travel, you might want to get an airline/travel rewards card. If you like to buy Sony products, get a Sony Rewards card. If you just want money, get a cash-back card. In other words, get whatever you desire from your card. Think about it, just by using your card to pay your bills, you might be able to travel to Hawaii for free every year, or possibly many times a year!

    This system will not only result in paying off your home quicker, but also giving you extra rewards, for FREE! And, this simplifies the Money Merge Account system by minimizing the amount of checks having to be written out of the HELOC.

  235. Jason V

    The reason the Heloc factor is one of the most misunderstood parts of the program, is because it really isn’t necessary. The Heloc is the least, not the most important, factor of the program. The amount of savings on your home generated by running all your money through the Heloc doesn’t even make the charts when compared to the amount that came from your discretionary income. Yes, the Heloc could potentially save me a small amount more in interest than if I was to just apply my left over income to the mortgage. However, you forgot about the $3,500 fee you paid for the program that I didn’t, and it gets even better for me when I apply that amount to my mortgage as well. You are still talking about “no lifestyle changes”. It doesn’t matter what vehicle your money is in, if you send in one additional penny of dicretionary income to your home loan that you otherwise wouldn’t have, then you have changed your lifestyle.

    What would happen in this country if we went back to the good old days of cash or even checks used solely for everything? What if we got rid of credit and debit cards, maybe use the cash envelope system along with a budget? Studies have shown that it is way easier for people to spend money and more of it when it is more convenient; just slide a card. You probably saw the commercial about the guy that held up the entire line at a store because he wanted to use cash. That was pretty funny on one hand, but it also reminds me about the pull that the slick plastic has on a whole lot of people in our culture.

  236. Jason V,

    Dale Carnegie says that “A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still.”

    People like Chris have their minds made up and don’t want to be receptive to new ideas.

    I for one am going to stop chiming in as I find it more productive to educate the public than try to perform brain surgery on straw men.

  237. Chris,

    Thanks for the comments about spending less and saving more. DUH! What will enable people to save more? Money Merge Account and, as you like to say, paying more money to principle! BUT.. how many people are better off spending all of their left over money into their closed-end first mortgage? What if the car breaks down or the furnace goes out? I think even you know enough to know that the Money Merge Account will enable homeowners to accumulate more quity faster than if their left over money just sat in a savings account.. no comparison. The software encourages you to be frugal since every expense makes an instant change to the payoff date!

    Will power will only get you so far. Me and you know that consumers have a bad habit of spending what they don’t have. But how can we get them out of this mess and change their perspective? Would you suggest they spend all their extra money to principal? Uhhh.. like the majority would stick with it.. nor is it recommended to do such a thing since they have no cushion or room for error by sending their extra money away.

    This way, customer’s pay their mortgage FIRST and can live the way they currently are and end up far better than what they are doing now!

    And you keep saying that people will end up AHEAD of what the Money Merge Account would by paying discretionary to principal every month! Uhh.. the answer is NO! If something were to happen unexpectedly they just end up BEHIND because their extra money has been sent to principal and then they have to refi (there’s the cost of the program right there — AND they are BEHIND).

    The program is easy and that’s why the technique is so powerful… NO CHANGE IN LIFESTYLE insofar as you can keep living the way you are (many might reconsider some of their expenditures since the software constantly keeps your “eye on the prize”) and just end up paying off faster and always having money to fall back on.

    Let the money go to work for you instead of earning interest for the banks sitting in checking and doing nothing…

    You can live the way you are now and pay off in 6-12 years rather than 30 or take Chris’ advice and send all your extra money to principal. Which is more reasonable to ask of somebody who is trying to get out of debt and has a hard time controlling their finances? Send more money away out of your checking never to be seen from again if you need it – or knocking years off your mortgage and saving TONS of interest with no noticable change to your daily life AND with more financial security and without taking investment risks to lose it all?

    Common.. there is a reason why there is a legal battle with Harj Gill and his ex-wife, etc. It’s that using a HELOC and knowing the system can pay off your mortgage and accumulate LIQUID equity MUCH faster even if you intend to sell in a few years and also uses a system that homeowners CAN STICK TO! We’re not asking them to send additional money to principal – that’s the WHOLE POINT here. Most people know they can send more to principal – DUH! … but most people don’t.. I wonder why (I am being sarcastic Chris)?

    I can’t understand how you don’t see the value in the product. If you are a financial planner and feel that bashing the system is the best way to protect your bottom line – you should wake-up and realize that you can offer this to your clients as another option!

  238. Chris,

    As my final remarks to you:
    The last paragraph of your last post about cutting up the credit cards and paying cash, etc. is the only thing you’ve said that I agree with. It is that philosophy about debt that has me selling MMA’s in the first place. You might enjoy this video on the subject from an old SNL episode:
    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xt0c6_snldontbuystuff

  239. Chris, you are simply a loser and your numbers – I await you to show them – will not beat our numbers unless you ask them to put themselves at risk by forfeiting all of their discretionary, and tied permantly into a closed-end mortgage – not smart for those that worry about not having enough money to cover .. well the cost of life!

    Nothing is ever black and white and just sending extra money to principle DOES NOT pay off your home quicker than the Money Merge Account would have you if you only KNEW HOW IT WORKED, IDIOT!

    I am making this statements becasue I know you work in the banking industry or related fields and really offer nothing but strawman solutions to a nation in debt – yea send more of your money to principal – we have a better way. You have no argument other than “spend less” or “pay more to principal” – you are a moron or, even worse, know better and are just trying to CONFUSE PEOPLE for your own gain!! What are going to offer them? “Lower interest rates” won’t do it.

    And based on your protecting the cashless society is even worse. Having cash and writing checks is great (or if you want to use plastic.. use a debit card!) .. “holding the line up to use cash” .. what a statement.. it doesn’t take FOREVER to do that!! Write a friggin check is that too much to ask?

    Chris = LOSER!

  240. Chris said “Studies have shown that it is way easier for people to spend money and more of it when it is more convenient; just slide a card. You probably saw the commercial about the guy that held up the entire line at a store because he wanted to use cash.”

    WELL DID YOU READ MY POST ABOUT USING YOUR CREDIT CARD TO ACCELERATE THE PERFORMANCE OF THE MONEY MERGE ACCOUNT! I GUESS NOT – SINCE YOU HAVE PROVEN YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

  241. Chris said “It doesn’t matter what vehicle your money is in, if you send in one additional penny of dicretionary income to your home loan that you otherwise wouldn’t have, then you have changed your lifestyle.”

    FORGIVE ME THEN. We change your lifestyle by IMPROVING IT! How’s that Chris? Would you be happy with “No lifestyle SACRIFICES?”

    It’s safe to say – “Chris has me Pissed.”

    The point of all this is – can you do this yourself? YES – sort of. If you want to pay additional money to principal – that helps but didn’t we already know that? Why aren’t people doing it now (am I getting through Chris)? Can you also have the financial liquidity and added security of having your equity available with the signing of a check should an emergency arise or an investment opportunity with the HELOC and do it yourself? Yes – but you don’t (not many Harj Gill’s out there). Otherwise you’d be rolling in money – or already doing this.

    If I wanted to find a way to get out of debt faster and you had known about this product but not shared it with me and instead told be to “spend less and also spend all my extra money to principal” when a MUCH easier and viable solution in the Money Merge Account was available – I’d smack you silly.

    Everyone who qualifies should be on this product.

  242. Chris you’ll have to forgive me on my response to that part of your post – the paragraph about using credit cards. I thought you were defending the idea of using credit cards since it is quick and easy. I agree with you about getting out of debt and changing our habits. Our program will work to change the outcome and help in this regard – and is easy for anyone to follow and carries less risk then sending all your extra money away to the mortgage company and not available should the extra equity be needed for whatever reason. I’ve already beat that horse to death already though. I’m sure you understand that people can live the way they are now and finish AHEAD!

  243. I don’t work in any industry related to this topic. I also never recommended that people use all their dicretionary income to pay down their mortgage. I was only using that in my example, because that is what the program does. It doesn’t matter if your using your own money or borrowing from someone else and them paying them back, you are still throwing your own discretionary income at your mortgage. If the same amounts of money are used, the timing is insignificant. So what if a hardship comes along; it will adversely affect your plan no matter what situation you are in. If you have a Heloc, it could snowball. People using the do-it-yourself approach may already have an emergency fund or they can build one up before they start. If it makes them feel more comfortable, they could even have the “security” of a HELOC as well without having to use it. The reason most people are not already doing what I have outlined, is because they want a quick fix and they don’t want to take the tough steps necessary to curtail their spending. It is interesting that you guys get more & more fumed with each additional fact I share. And the name calling, what is that all about? There is absolutely no reason for it, because it only weakens your arguments and character.

    If the system is so great, why do the numbers need to be fudged to try and prove to someone that they cannot beat it on their own?

  244. Do you ever hear about disgruntled credit card holders complaining on line or at the BBB about how it is fraudulant, unfair & unethical that the credit card companies made them spend way beyond their means and thus caused them to incur massive amounts of debt that they will never be able to crawl out from under? No, they knew what the consequences would be when they let their spending get out of hand. The same can be said about a lot of people using the program. Many are simply unaware of the alternative methods. Others will end up a lot worse off down the road than the analysis projected and just attribute the difference to their own personal decisions. This is why it doesn’t suprise me at all that you don’t hear many formal complaints. After all, as others have said, even if you make one big lump sum payment to the mortgage and then pay off that amount plus the HELOC and quit the system, you have saved time and interest on your mortgage. It just cost you $3,500 to do it.

  245. Chris said “I also never recommended that people use all their dicretionary income to pay down their mortgage. I was only using that in my example, because that is what the program does.”

    But Chris does still not get through his thick skull that people can pay this down their mortgage without changing their lifestyle! And if you are not recommending to send additional money to principle.. how ELSE are they going to pay down their mortgage at an accelerated rate? Every penny that you don’t spend goes toward the balance instead of sitting around doing nothing in your checking accout.. that’s powerful!

    “So what if a hardship comes along; it will adversely affect your plan no matter what situation you are in.” Uhhh.. my point was that if you tried to match the results of sending all discretionary to mortgage, because on our program you’ll pay it off faster than if you were to simply send all your extra money at the end of the month, then you’d have NO MONEY FOR EMERGENCIES and YES you will have access to those funds with the MMA and no refinancing and wasting additional money in fees – just write a check!

    You also said Chris “People using the do-it-yourself approach may already have an emergency fund or they can build one up before they start.”

    What if they DON’T? They could start but would it be better to use that money to offset interest on the mortgage and pay it down faster and having that equity – since they may never need it – built up faster?

    You also said “The reason most people are not already doing what I have outlined, is because they want a quick fix and they don’t want to take the tough steps necessary to curtail their spending.”

    And that is why we offer the Money Merge Account. Easy, fast, guaranteed or your money-back.

    And, lastly, how can YOU beat our product? YOU CANT SO YOU DESERVE THE HARSH WORDS SILLY! Don’t talk bad about something you know little about!!!

  246. Chris I had just about enough but you barfed the following: “No, they knew what the consequences would be when they let their spending get out of hand. The same can be said about a lot of people using the program. Many are simply unaware of the alternative methods. Others will end up a lot worse off down the road than the analysis projected and just attribute the difference to their own personal decisions.”

    Now you are just trying to find reasons to bash us by suggesting that we are somehow ENCOURAGING homeowners to spend more than they can afford. Did you not read the actual article for which you are posting? The software as a financial dashboard encourages frugality by showing how every scenario will affect your payoff date. If people choose to not follow the software then that is just sad. And that is not our fault for showing them the door. So don’t even go there. Personal responsiblity is just that. Don’t even come at us with that last-ditch effort to discredit United First Financial.

    Again, show me a better way. (and then I’ll correct you- LOL)

  247. Jason V.

    Holding all other variables of income & expenses the same, you will not significantly pay down your mortgage without changing your lifestyle. It doesn’t matter how many times you say otherwise.

    Send me a copy of a typical recent analysis for a new perspective client.

  248. Chris I’d love to send you an analysis but that would violate the privacy clause (I’m sure you understand) – we make a pledge never to give our clients information for any reason whatsoever.

    You also said “Holding all other variables of income & expenses the same, you will not significantly pay down your mortgage without changing your lifestyle. It doesn’t matter how many times you say otherwise.”

    If your income pays down your mortgage FIRST by using the HELOC to drive the Money Merge Account software, and letting it sit in the account reducing the average daily balance that an open-ended loan such as a HELOC provides does INDEED allow you to make your transfers and use discretionary to pay off your mortgage. And the reason why you have no change in lifestyle is because you will continue to pay your bills and usual costs for entertainment, groceries, etc. as usual and by changing WHERE you put your money you CAN pay off your mortgage allowing you to not have to change the way you live currently. You pretty much just put your money to work for you with the Money Merge Account. And the details I’ve already described above. Again I STRESS to you – If your definition of using discretionary income is a change in lifestyle – then it’s a change for the better. But you are not sending in extra money in the traditional sense. I don’t have to change the way I live currently. My money, when I am not using it, is saving me years and tons of interest on our mortgage. Most of us at UFF practice what we preach. We USE the software! If you continue to want to argue about what “change in lifestyle means” then you just need to understand that you can pay what you are paying now, and by changing WHERE you put your money, you will pay off your mortgage much faster! If you don’t feel like you’re doing anything different then that is not a change in your lifestyle. Where you put your money to work for you is another thing – a good thing. Lifestyle means your current standard of living. I’ve made many posts before.. ‘Why a HELOC’ or addressing the $3500 cost in comparison to the VALUE and perspectives, etc. Re-read or contact corporate or a United First Financial Branch Manager. Have you read the most recent Broker Banker magazine article? Mortgage acceleration has made it to the United States and it is here to stay. United First Financial has 24/7 customer support, and it’s the only company that offers all the service we do!

  249. Jason V

    That’s fine if you don’t want to share someone elses information. Just make a hypothetical scenario up, run the analysis on it, and submit it here for all to see.

  250. Chris,

    On the website I have you can click on a 50 min or so video called ‘Money Merge Account video tour’ which goes over all the numbers for you analytical types and should answer most of your questions. Let me know.

  251. When I get back I’ll post MY numbers. And then (and I am clueless as to your point with this) YOU can show me how I can pay my mortgage off faster – again – WITHOUT getting all my extra money tied up on my closed-end conventional mortgage – keeping my cashflow nice and liquid. This will be EXCITING! THEN you can show US how YOU can beat our product!! LOL

    Again, I will repeat your post from earlier “I also never recommended that people use all their dicretionary income to pay down their mortgage. I was only using that in my example, because that is what the program does.”

  252. 1st mortgage was $159,905 and $1309 per mon
    2nd mortgage was $40419 and $366 per mon
    auto loan was $8357 and $254 per mon
    MMA was $3500

    Total Monthly Fixed was $212,181 and $1929 / mon

    New structure:

    1st mortgage $159905 and $1309 per mon
    HELOC $52276 $392.07/mon
    total: $212181 and $1701.07/mon (saved $227.93/mon right off the bat)

    Paid bi weekly at $1044 and weekly at $594 from spouse

    Discretionary is $1100/mon + $227.93 saved

    Pay off in 7.2 years saving 20.8 years and saving $216,627.53 in interest

  253. Chris,

    Also, in the months I saved on my mortgage.. had I deposited my extra funds and what would have been my mortgage payment.. depositing that into an account with 4% rate of return I would have $1,060,942.82 sitting there. at 6% that would be $1,351,321.38 sitting there .. at 8% $1,743,436.11!

    So either way.. dont talk bad about a product that WORKS for ME! I’ll be laughing all the way to the BANK sweetcheeks! I don’t care what YOU do.

  254. Ok guys, after reading everything this is what I am thinking.

    First, I all ready have a 80k HELOC with zero balance. I keep it for just in case something happens etc….

    180K loan, 6%, fixed 30 yr, I am on payment 1 year 4.

    Every month I will only have $500 extra. This is the only extra income I will have per month.

    Scenario 1 – I pay the $3500 and use the program.

    Scenario 2 – I send the $500 every month to pay down principal.

    Which scenario do I come out ahead in and by how many months?

    I am thinking scenario 2 because I am not taking on any additional debt from the HELOC which I will pay interest on nor paying $3500.

    I all ready have an 80k HELOC, so in BOTH scenarios I have something to fall back on if needed in an emergency. There is no additional risk of not using the MMA program.

    Paying $500 to the principal vs putting my check into a HELOC and having $500 left over at the end of the month requires THE SAME AMOUNT OF DISCIPLINE. I still have to spend to my budget no matter what.

    I do not see any benefit to the MMA program. Could someone show me how using the program will save me more money given my parameters.

    Someone do the MMA numbers and I will use an online program for the 500 extra per month and lets compare.

  255. Jason,

    You lost credibility with the whole Ron Paul statement, and lets take politics out of this unless you have a reputable candidate to standby.

    I really like the concept of MMA, but you are not helping the cause. You base your scenarios with inflated numbers and myself and most Americans are living paycheck to paycheck with no discretionary income. Using inflated numbers just takes away how impressive the software can be.

    I also do not know why no one has expanded on my statement regarding 10,000 units sold with no complaints. This is what has me sold on the product at this point. These numbers are even more impressive than cutting my mortgage in half.

    And Chris,

    Why would you not buy a product that 10,000 people bought with zero complaints on forums or to the BBB. I really want to beleive you, but why have their been no complaints from users.

  256. Lets not forget. I can invest 3500 from day one and also use an interest bearing checking account in scenario 2.

  257. And if anyone cries foul that no one has 3500 dollars to invest in the beginning, then lets leave it off. I still think I will come out ahead.

    Someone please prove me wrong!!!!! I am interested in MMA but it doesn’t seem like the numbers add up.

  258. Will some one who is against the MMA software please step up to the plate and make a valid arguement regarding the zero complaints.

    You do not need a masters in math or engineering to see users of MMA apparently like it.

  259. I personally don’t really care about there being no complaints.

    All I care about are the numbers. If MMA saves me money in my situation then I would have no problem using it.

  260. Justin, I don’t make purchase decisions based solely on the amount of complaints or the lack there of. There are over 300 million people in this country. How do you and I actually know how many people have bought this? I have heard a lot of different numbers. A lot of people that probably would complain, don’t buy the program to begin with. The reason I personally wouldn’t buy it is because I can do better on my own without any more special effort. Also, I chose a 15 year loan with a lower rate and a higher payment; that cut out half the time and a load of interest right there. I’d rather put the bulk of my extra money in other investments where I can get a better return.

  261. Sean,

    What good info? You just did a Google search for ‘money merge account’ and clicked the first link you saw on the first page that said ‘SCAM’.. this is a link to people who are NOT on the product and obviously DON’T understand it. You can find ANYTHING on the internet. I’d say the discussion on THIS thread is pretty good. Also I need more information about your budget. Go to the website I posted above and just submit the free analysis – you don’t have to give up your account numbers or anything. Just your budget!

    Chris,

    This program is perfect if you invest. But if you are one of the most savvy investors out there and already rich (doubt it) then I really hope you can earn more return on your investment than the Money Merge Account on your home. You can use the equity to invest (assuming you can get a higher rate of return!).

    Justin,

    Inflated numbers? I already said in my earlier post that I cannot post other people’s number – so I submitted MY numbers! Inflated? LOL – The program works so well for me it’s surreal. And by the way, I LOVE the Constitution and am fed up (for a long time) with the direction both the Left and Right have taken us. Forgive me for not taking all of my news from the mainstream corporate media and radio and print! I did my research on him and I am voting on PRINCIPLE. Look at the guys voting record! I just meant to be funny yet supportive and didn’t want to make this a political argument but to say I’ve lost credibility because I back a candididate that I believe in then bug off! Most of you sheeple have no clue what is going on in the world today. (And I don’t blame you)

  262. You know a lot of people, when faced with something they don’t understand, will attempt to discredit it and make statements that conform to their conditioned opinion, whether it be about intial $3500, interest rates, etc.. this process breaks all the rules to so speak.

    And I am just about tired of trying to further explain the process. NO ONE has been able to discredit what we are doing here. False statements are just that. There are lots of people out there with a mortgage that are perfect for the program – huge opportunity – and I am not wasting any more time here.

    If you don’t request an analysis for you to do your own comparisons then it doesn’t matter what numbers you try on your own – you don’t know where to BEGIN! You can’t solve something you don’t understand. Chris, you’re a lost cause if you won’t take the opporunity to check it out for your self. It doesn’t affect MY payoff date! Don’t let me or others tell you what to think. Check out the numbers, complain all you want and try to weigh the options (media coverage such as Broker Banker, NBC Las Vegas) the lack of CUSTOMER complaints, etc. etc… if YOUR job to do what’s right for YOU. And if you hold to old-fashioned perspectives of putting all money into a checking account that earns squat and how loans traditionally work and interest rates affect payments, etc. Then so be it. This product will be household name soon and you all will just jump aboard later.

    You got it – you’ll be doing this program sooner or later! Unless you simply bury your head in the sand and continue to say things like “the numbers don’t add up” – LOL – yea and we’ll all be getting sued in a class action soon and all those reputable media outlets will then have to say ‘whoops – we were duped’ – YEA RIGHT – they KNOW HOW IT WORKS. Most people in America DON’T.

  263. Jason V,

    How many times are you going to say that the program is something we don’t understand? I want to be very clear here, and I’ll even use capital letters since that appears to be something you think helps; THERE ISN’T ANYTHING ABOUT THE PROGRAM THAT I DON’T UNDERSTAND.

    Every time the average person is directed to pay a big lump sum to the mortgage, they save about $5 or $6 using the HELOC. That’s it. Not only does that once-in-a-while transaction not amount to much over the years, but it needs to be weighed against the high price you paid for the software to tell you to do it.

    I’m glad the program is going to work so well for you because you are choosing to spend all your extra money to pay off your home, even though the big claim from UFF is that you can do it with zero extra money. If you have more discretionary income than most people, than why didn’t you get a 15 year loan to begin with at a lower interest rate?

    And why are people getting analysis back that show discrepancies between their proposed monthly income(weekly times 4 equals monthly) versus what it actually is(weekly times 52 divided by 12 equals monthly)?

  264. Chris, think people can pay off their home in the same amount of time WITHOUT a HELOC? If not, then how ELSE to you think homeowners will pay off their mortgage as fast. Show me YOUR numbers! What is your plan and how is it better than the Money Merge Account? You are all talk a no walk. And I didn’t get a 15 year loan because I liked where that left my discretionary. If I had a 15 year – I’d still pay off in less than half the time. You still think that somehow your plan for people will work better than our plan? By the way what IS your plan? You said that you don’t recommend sending all extra discretionary to primary (since homeowners have no money in the bank if they need it). So what is your plan?

  265. Jason V,

    “He finally sent the email with login information!”

    So what happen, did you try the Speedy Equity system?

    Just trying to follow these threads.

  266. Chris:

    What are you paid and how often?

    What is your discretionary?

    What is your mortgage and rate? How many years left (preferrably months)? What type of mortgage is it?

    What is your mortgage payment?

    What is that VALUE of your home?

  267. Tom,

    I already use the MMA. I just wanted to see how it worked. The software starts out by asking ME how much I want to send to the mortgage from my HELOC and recommends $5000. I do no like it thus far and if I have any questions – there is no phone number! I’d have to wait for a webinar. It does not adjust to my situation and wants me to fill in the variables and read his book which I won’t receive until the end of Aug. It’s already not my cup of tea. I just want a program that I can input what I am bringing in and what I am spending and spend no more then ten min a month with it. I have plenty other things going on. My financial situation I know is taken care of with the Money Merge Account.

  268. Chris said “Every time the average person is directed to pay a big lump sum to the mortgage, they save about $5 or $6 using the HELOC.”

    Just where are you deriving these numbers genius? Since you seem to already know the algorithms built into the software (which is the bread and butter and really why we are paying the money).. How does the software work? Why does it work so well? What are all the variables? How can I make calculations to the penny? Why do you think that you can beat the MMA still without all of my money tied up in my 1st mortgage? Hmmm.

    And about the discretionary income – the money back guarantee is based on this. So what? You’ll finish AHEAD of the projections. Get real. If I sent every penny of descretionary without this program and without a HELOC I’d pay my mortgage in 9 years. Not only does this take LONGER but it’s also risky to send all my extra money away. What if I want to go on vacation.. refi?

  269. I’m not sure I understand the whole “discretionary funds” thing.

    I have money left over in the old balance sheet once I pay the standard monthly bills. But what is left over is always spent on discretionary items such as dinner with friends, a new suit, a trampoline for the kids, etc.

    I can’t just see that is going to change any. I (like many others) spend what I make on monthly bills and fun.

  270. Jason,

    I already outlined my ultra simple plan in my very first post. Again, I already have an emergency savings, so I can use all my extra income to pay down my mortgage if I want to. If other people have no savings, then they can save up the $3,500 just as quick as they would be able to borrow and pay it off in your system. They can also have a HELOC just like Sean said if that makes them feel more secure. There isn’t anything difficult about this. Apples to apples my friend. So what if you have the “security” of a HELOC. So do the people that do it themselves.

    Most of the people that sign up for this are going to be doing it for 10, 15 or 20 years. Do you think there aren’t going to be a lot of them who ultimately decide that they would rather spend their extra money on other things in life than their mortgage? People change their minds all the time. What about the people who end up worse off with a debt snowball they cannot overcome? It’s nice to say they have the security of the HELOC and that it will just push out their payoff projections until they get back on track. What happens when they don’t get back on track?

    And you still haven’t answered my question. Why are their income dicrepancies in some of the analysis people are receiving?

  271. Are you beginning to see why a HELOC is used and why there is an ongoing court battle for the rights to market software that claims similar results to the Money Merge Account (and yet is not as easy to use nor does it work the same – both use a HELOC to drive the plan)? HELOC will enable quicker results then simply sending discretionary. And you disagree Chris because you don’t, again, understand how it works. If so, you’d be able to tell me what in the book written by Harj Gill that sells for $92 on Amazon.com !! Did it ever occur to you that there is a real good reason why the HELOC is used (not all HELOCs though – the right one) to drive the system? Maybe because it works and doesn’t ask you to send all of your extra money into your mortgage. Again, do you not see why without a HELOC sending all your extra money would be a bad idea? With the Money Merge Account can you see that people can live the way they are now (write the same number of bills and expenses) and paid off in 6-12 years. Chris – you are stubborn – that is a fact.

  272. Tom,

    Discretionary income is defined: The amount of an individual’s income available for spending after the essentials (such as food, clothing, and shelter) have been taken care of.

    This program is not for everybody. If spend all of what you earn when you get it – and have no discretionary then you will save SOME money but do not expect to pay off your mortgage in 6 years. The program has nifty ways of finding discretionary. Every dollar you are not using now can be used to pay down your mortgage and that does give you an advantage over what you are doing now. If you have NSF fees frequently and have negative cash flow – then I’d say this program would not be for you. If you have even $50 at the end of the month then I can run the numbers and we’ll see what the analysis provides.
    I’d ask you:

    What are you paid and how often?

    What is your discretionary?

    What is your mortgage and rate? How many years left (preferrably months)? What type of mortgage is it?

    What is your mortgage payment?

    What is that VALUE of your home?

  273. Jason V,

    As I said above, you don’t need a HELOC to get the same or better results than the program. And you still haven’t answered my question.

  274. And when I say most in 6-12 years – that is for those who qualify, and we use the free financial analysis to pre-qualify you. You won’t know until you ask. Again, not everyone will qualify unfortunately. Even with a little left over that you would just let sit there and add up until you find some gadget to buy -this program can change your habits and get you out of your mortgage sooner.

    Tom,

    Imagine what you could do if you made tiny changes in your spending habits just without the MMA. Avoid the starbucks every morning and brew your own cup. etc. etc. The Money Merge Account will show you how every move you make will impact the payoff. Say you wanted to buy that trampoline – you’ve got the money since you have accumulated equity much faster – and you can see how this affects payoff? Maybe it would set you back 2 months, would you do it? Maybe and maybe not. AFTER you pay off your home you will no longer have a mortgage payment and be able to live the life with your family that you unable to afford now. That’s the goal here. This definately requires discipline. But the software makes this much easier. Again, review the numbers and then make a decision.

  275. Chris,

    You said, “you don’t need a HELOC to get the same or better results than the program.”

    You still haven’t explained how this is possible Chris!!!!!! And what question do I need to answer still from you?

  276. Jason V,

    Just in case you haven’t seen any examples pertaining the question I am asking you, I’ll post an example here from another thread.

    “A perfect example of how these companies lie is contained, amazingly enough, in their very own Agent Guide.

    They provide an example of a couple with a $200K loan at 6% who are paid $2500 every other week. Their expenses (excluding their mortgage) are listed as $2800.90, the analysis falsely claims their monthly income is $5000 and therefore their discretionary income is $1000/mo.

    That is flatly false and understates their actual average monthly income by $416.67 and understates their average discretionary income by the same amount.

    By doing so they make their analysis of a 21.7 year reduction in payoff look pretty good compared to plugging the same $1000 in discretionary income into an amortization calculator as an additional monthly payment. But since the real number is $1416.67, when you plug that in you see that you pay off your mortgage in 21.92 fewer years.

    Gee, just taking your discretionary income and applying it to your mortgage generates a BETTER result than the HELOC money shuffle.

    Pretty shocking news if you just coughed up $3500 in the belief that the early pay off was due to the money shuffling and not you digging an extra $1416.67 out of your pocket every month.”

    Is this not true? Is this not happening? I want to know.

  277. And if the above is happening, how is that helping to educate people, end the cycle of debt, and change the financial climate in this country as you say?

  278. Jason V,

    You said earlier that mortgage acceleration has come to the US and is here to stay. You are correct only in the fact that mortgage acceleration has been going on in the US for decades and decades, and it has been accomplished just as I’ve described, and it can match or beat your alternative system.

  279. Jason V,

    Here is another one. Please tell me this is not true of your program.

    “How many of these mortgage acceleration scheme salespeople have you seen telling you that their product has a 100% GUARANTEE?

    So what’s the truth? Well it might not quite be a 100% GUARANTEE, here is the wording from one of these firm’s Policies and Procedures manual:

    “Customers have three business days (72 hours) after the sale or execution
    of a contract to cancel the order and receive a full refund consistent with
    the cancellation notice on the MMA New Client Fee Authorization Form (5
    days for Alaska, 120 hours).”

    What? 3 days?

    Guess the folks touting the 100% Moneyback Guarantee forgot to mention that little detail.

    No such guarantee exists. What does exist is a “Limited Guarantee” which the firm says (to its agents, not to the client) “This is a hold harmless clause that protects United First Financial …”.

    They do not guarantee your results, despite that claim by several agents. They merely guarantee that if your income and expenses are as described in the analysis the payoff term will be as described. Well DUHHH. They do NOT guarantee that their agents didn’t mislead you into thinking the product was doing something wonderful that it is not. They do NOT guarantee that the listed “discretionary income” is correct. They do NOT guarantee that your $3500 was well spent.”

  280. Ok guys.

    I finally understand the program and see how you can generate a few dollars each month.

    If have ZERO extra income then the program WILL NOT WORK.

    Think about it. If you take 5000 from a HELOC and you don’t have ANY extra income, you will never pay that money back. After paying all your bills the original 5000 dollar balance will still be there. Eventually, the interest on the HELOC will be more then the interest you earned TODAY, not future value, on the mortgage. In the end it would EXTEND the amount of time it would take to pay off your mortgage and HELOC together.

    The reason the MMA people say you can pay down your mortgage with no extra money is because they say 4weeks of pay equal a month. So 4 times 12 equals 48 weeks a year, when we all know that isn’t true. They then put the extra weeks of pay as discretionary money towards the loan but NEVER tell you that.

    If you have say 500 or so per month you can generate around 4-5 dollars a month with the float/difference of interest saved on the mortgage vs interest paid on the HELOC.

    So for your $3500 investment, you are getting back 4 or so EXTRA dollars per month that you can put towards your mortgage, IF you have some extra money every month. It depends how fast you can pay down the HELOC.

    You would be much better off saving the 3500 and putting all your income into an interest EARNING account. You would earn interest on the float. At the end of the month you pay your bills and take any extra income, plus the interest you earned, and put it towards your mortgage.

    Instead of earning around 4-5 dollars you would earn about double that, pay off your mortgage a couple months sooner and not spend the 3500.

    UFF/MMA has a great smoke and mirrors show going on.

    One last point. If you can take out a HELOC to do MMA, then you can take out a HELOC to have for an emergency. Do not listen to them trying to convince you that with out MMA you won’t have a back up plan in case of an emergency.

    AND

    It takes just as much discipline to do MMA vs putting your money in an interest earning account vs just paying your monthly extra income to your loan etc…. Bottom line is that you must spend to budget.

  281. “Gee, just taking your discretionary income and applying it to your mortgage generates a BETTER result than the HELOC money shuffle.”

    But why would I want to send all of my money had I not done this program into closed-end mortgage? How can I get the money back? Are you suggesting to take out a HELOC just for emergencies?

  282. Chris,

    IF YOU KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT CONTRACT LAW YOU’D KNOW THERE IS A THREE DAY RIGHT TO RECISSION FOR ANY CONTRACT ENTERETED INTO AND CAN BE CANCELED WITHIN THREE DAYS. THIS IS REQUIED BY LAW. THE MONEY-BACK GUARANTEE EXISTS BEYOND THE THREE DAY PERIOD!! COMMON MAN! ARE JUST TRYING TO CAUSE PROBLEMS?

  283. Sean,

    Everyone has seen that scam thread by now. Get off it. You don’t not nor do they know what they are talking about. What other account do you suggest I deposit my income in??

  284. You are right on, Sean.

    And all that talk about sophisticated software and mysterious algorithms (that no one should question) to describe how you will save that 4-5 dollars that you wouldn’t otherwise have been able to generate on your own.

  285. Remember the Money Merge Account is EASY to use? How much time will it take me to track the amount of money I need to sent where and make sure I am sending the most possible and maximize the time I can save off my mortgage (and beat the Money Merge Account).. I am not really sure that you know they exact plan one should take. If you do, write a book and sell it for $19.95 and make a bundle.

    Cheers!

  286. I’m serious. What am I to do with my money if I weren’t on the program. Name the type if the account. WHEN to transfer. Let me know. We’ll be RICH!! LOL

    I don’t think the three musketeers all have it QUITE figured out just yet – lol

  287. Show me how I can pay off my mortgage FASTER than what I am set to pay now on the program. Prove me wrong you Sean and … Chris.

  288. Jason

    All the program is calculating is the amount of money you will earn by paying down the mortgage with the HELOC vs how much interest you have to pay with the HELOC. It maximizes the monthly amount earned, the extra 4-5 bucks. The more discretionary money you have per month, the more you can BORROW from the HELOC. This also explains why you can’t do MMA with out any discretionary income no matter what the agents say. If you don’t have extra money then you can’t pay back the money you borrowed from the HELOC.

    You are always better off not borrowing any money at all, earning interest on the monthly income you can float and then paying the balance towards the mortgage.

    The reason for this is because the amount of money you float earns interest while with MMA the amount of money you float only decreases the amount of interest you will pay on the HELOC.

  289. Sean,

    Why don’t you complain about Jiffy Lube! What scammers they are – I can change the air filter myself for less than $10 rather than pay them $35.. what a SCAM!! This is a business. If you can figure out the Money Merge Account formulas then you can do it yourself? Yes. Do YOU know? Absolutely not. A business provides a service – for a fee. Quit making it sound like we are selling snake oil.

  290. Sean,

    Again. You did not explain how I CAN DO THIS according to what you say! For all the people on the fence out there. Show them HOW.

    You said “All the program is calculating is the amount of money you will earn by paying down the mortgage with the HELOC vs how much interest you have to pay with the HELOC. It maximizes the monthly amount earned, the extra 4-5 bucks. The more discretionary money you have per month, the more you can BORROW from the HELOC. This also explains why you can’t do MMA with out any discretionary income no matter what the agents say. If you don’t have extra money then you can’t pay back the money you borrowed from the HELOC.”

    Do you not understand that by transferring the lump sum (determined by the program) and then depositing your PAYCHECK into the HELOC driving down the average daily balance you offset tousands in interest and pay a mere pittance on the HELOC compared to what you are offsetting on the primary. Remember one loan is closed-end – the other open-end.

    You also said “You are always better off not borrowing any money at all, earning interest on the monthly income you can float and then paying the balance towards the mortgage.”

    Right Einstein. But for those that are already in the mortgage and making the min payment – what do you do for them. HOW DO I EARN INTEREST ON THE INCOME I FLOAT! Easier said then done. Quit trying to figure out a complicated solution to a simple Money Merge Account system.

    You said “The reason for this is because the amount of money you float earns interest while with MMA the amount of money you float only decreases the amount of interest you will pay on the HELOC.”

    Are you suggesting that I can earn MORE interest than I am SAVING using the Money Merge Account? Please. And you still haven’t provided that magic account that I can deposit my income without any fees or restraints.

  291. Jason,

    In the jiffy lube situation I know what all choices are and what they are going to cost me, straight up from the beginning. I have a choice. Do it myself and save money or pay more and have it done. You guys make it like MMA is the absolute best and their is no way someone could do better on their own.

    the problem is with your pitch. You tell people that they can pay down their mortgage with out any discretionary income, which isn’t true. You tell people that they would not have any back up funds if all they did was pay their extra money into their mortgage instead of using MMA when anyone who can get a HELOC for MMA can get a HELOC for emergency situations anyway. You use 4weeks of pay per month and then take the extra money to pay down the loan while you tell the client they aren’t spending any more money.

    MMA uses the HELOC to make the situation more complicated. It also adds some wow factor when you can say, “Look, you only paid 10cents in interest on the HELOC but saved 10k dollars, that is what the program does by reducing the interest paid” when you don’t explain that the money saved is FUTURE earnings.

    In the end you hope your client forgets about figuring out how it works and only concentrates on the final numbers. “See, you saved 200k in interest, isn’t paying 3500 worth it?”

    If you guys where 100% percent straight up and showed what really was happening and than ran the numbers for your client with other alternative ways to pay down their mortgage, like any professional financial planner would, you would never sell MMA at 3500 a pop.

    Bottom line is that you are being deceiving.

  292. Sean said “If you don’t have extra money then you can’t pay back the money you borrowed from the HELOC”

    Do you not understand that the paycheck is deposited into the HELOC which drives to the balance since the interest (as opposed to your conventional mortgage) is based on average daily balance. So when you make this transfer to your primary you are offsetting thousands in interest compared to the interest you pay on the HELOC (the rate on the HELOC makes very little difference as a result). Remember you are dealing with a closed-end and open-ended mortgage. Money sent to a closed end loan will do wonders compared to a HELOC who interest can be offset and reduced a great deal by leaving your income deposited for as long as possible.

    You also said “You are always better off not borrowing any money at all, earning interest on the monthly income you can float and then paying the balance towards the mortgage.”

    Thanks Einstein. But for those who ALREADY have a mortgage and making minimum payments, you still have not described the magic account one would earn MORE interest than I am SAVING by making transfers to my closed-end mortgage!!!

  293. Sean said “You tell people that they can pay down their mortgage with out any discretionary income, which isn’t true.”

    How many people do you know that have ZERO dollars at the end of the month? There is always going to be some money here and there. Otherwise you’re in the red.

    you said “You tell people that they would not have any back up funds if all they did was pay their extra money into their mortgage instead of using MMA when anyone who can get a HELOC for MMA can get a HELOC for emergency situations anyway.”

    I didn’t tell anyone that but you and the whole point here was that Chris’ solution was that I could do this WITHOUT a HELOC -hence my comments about what to do in an emergency. So there.

    You said “You use 4weeks of pay per month and then take the extra money to pay down the loan while you tell the client they aren’t spending any more money.”

    When I say you aren’t spending any more money I mean you are not writing any additional checks to anybody else than you are currently. Nothing changes from your day to day as you live it now. You still pay the same bills Sean!!

  294. Jason V,

    I already have a HELOC. I got it for free. I don’t need to use it though. It just sits there. Also, there is no reason why anyone has to let their money just sit in a non-interest earning checking account. There are lots of savings and checking accounts out there that pay good interest.

    Again, the amount and timing of your extra payments is almost a non-factor. You simply need to apply the same total amounts that you have already decided to use to pay down your mortgage, regardless of the system you use.

    At Jiffy Lube, you forgot the part about overhead & profit. You are paying them for a service you simple decide not to do on your own. Just like the MMA, you have to decide if it is worth it to you to have someone else do it for you. This should be true of every purchase you make. You have chosen to use the program, and that is fine; just don’t tell me I can’t do it better myself and that the program beats the alternatives every time.

    So, are the numbers in the agent analysis being fudged or not?

  295. I understand what you saying, and if you have extra money to pay down the heloc then you will make a few bucks extra per month from the difference in interest rates btween the HELOC and the mortgage.

    What you aren’t realizing is that if you have ZERO discretionary income then you CAN’T PAY BACK THE HELOC.

    My statement below is 100% true.

    Sean said “If you don’t have extra money then you can’t pay back the money you borrowed from the HELOC”

    Do you not understand that the paycheck is deposited into the HELOC which drives to the balance since the interest (as opposed to your conventional mortgage) is based on average daily balance. So when you make this transfer to your primary you are offsetting thousands in interest compared to the interest you pay on the HELOC (the rate on the HELOC makes very little difference as a result). Remember you are dealing with a closed-end and open-ended mortgage. Money sent to a closed end loan will do wonders compared to a HELOC who interest can be offset and reduced a great deal by leaving your income deposited for as long as possible

  296. I’ve heard it said that even a much larger up front fee would be acceptable for the MMA since it saves you so much money. Why not pay 10, 50 or even 100 thousand dollars if you are going to save $200,000?

    An agent or client, please tell me, are the numbers being fudged in the analysis prospective clients are receiving? Circle:

    YES or NO

  297. Sean you still haven’t told me how I can beat the current system I am on. What type of account do I deposit my income in to earn more money than I am saving my getting out of my mortgage in 7 years. You forget that I am already on the program and I have not changed anything from what I was doing before the program. That $3500 dollar mark I paid did not come out of my pocket. That was rolled into the HELOC, same if I were to refinance the home -so I don’t miss it. And for what it is doing for me. The price is worth it. So be a financial planner, if you will, and tell me just how I can do this. And make it easy and simple to do and without the prospect of human error (I don’t want to make any mistakes)… this is the type of customer I am and the customers we serve. People who don’t want to worry about their finances – live the way the are currently – and use the software as a financial dashboard to see how their expenses affect their payoff – just tell the software what going in and out and follow the prompts. EASY. I am one HAPPY customer just like all the others!!!!!

  298. Sean you said “What you aren’t realizing is that if you have ZERO discretionary income then you CAN’T PAY BACK THE HELOC.”

    The software will FIND discretionary because (and to you everything is black and white – ZERO discretionary – OK.) How many people actually spend every single penny every month?? Meaning if they bought a Snickers bar .. they’d be in the red. Nothing is black and white and there will always be money, even if it’s 10 dollars that you can put toward your mortgage when you are not using it and if you have even a few NSF fees a month. You are not qualified for the product. So if you spend every single dime of what you earn every single month, not only are you standing at forclosures doorstep (God forbid that taxes go up next year) and not qualified for MMA. MOST OF US HAVE POSITIVE CASHFLOW! That’s why we can go eat at Mickey D’s when we drive by, etc (hypothetical). And I get a better feel for their situation when I talk to them and ask them questions about their life and run the numbers. I don’t just sucker anyone into this. That not only would come back bad on me but the company.

  299. Chris,

    I will not respond to your arguing over a hypothetical scenario suggesting to charge $10 or $20 thousand for it… geez. $3500 is the price!

    Now you said “An agent or client, please tell me, are the numbers being fudged in the analysis prospective clients are receiving? Circle: YES or NO”

    If I started from month one I would only have as much as the analysis provides. Averaged out over the year YES THE INCOME IS MORE THAN ON THE ESTIMATE. But… WHO CARES when that means they will pay of SOONER than the projection!!! I didn’t even catch this until you pointed it out – but do I care? NO! If taken in a given one month span – it is accurate. Over the year .. divided by 12 then yes the numbers are a little higher. What does that matter other than I will pay off sooner? What’s your friggin point?

  300. My point Chris, I don’t make my averaged income every month – that is INACCURATE! And the money back guarantee is based on what is on that sheet. So instead of claims of overstating income and getting into a legal mess or something (I don’t know the exact logic since I didn’t make the call for the company), I think the one month projection is just fine and dandy. And you of course are not seeing the bigger picture here.. that I will be paying by mortgage off sooner that YOU! lol

  301. There you have it folks, the numbers are being fudged in the analysis to “try” and further show why you cannot do it on your own, when in reality you can.

    Jason V said, “I don’t just sucker anyone into this.”

    No, only some people.

  302. Chris makes the above comment because he has not shown how to actually do it on your own, what account, how much, etc… I want the actual process Chris! Since you know it all.

  303. Chris – OK – I am a prospective customer begging for your services… what do I need to do? What account do I deposit my money in to earn as much interest as I am saving on the Money Merge Account? hmmm…. or are you going to nitpick about something else and twist my words yet again or actually describe the process and not just say ‘an account that earns interest’. And describe how it will pay my home of AS FAST OR FASTER.

  304. Sean you still haven’t told me how I can beat the current system I am on. What type of account do I deposit my income in to earn more money than I am saving my getting out of my mortgage in 7 years. You forget that I am already on the program and I have not changed anything from what I was doing before the program. That $3500 dollar mark I paid did not come out of my pocket. That was rolled into the HELOC, same if I were to refinance the home -so I don’t miss it. And for what it is doing for me. The price is worth it. So be a financial planner, if you will, and tell me just how I can do this. And make it easy and simple to do and without the prospect of human error (I don’t want to make any mistakes)… this is the type of customer I am and the customers we serve. People who don’t want to worry about their finances – live the way the are currently – and use the software as a financial dashboard to see how their expenses affect their payoff – just tell the software what going in and out and follow the prompts. EASY. I am one HAPPY customer just like all the others!

  305. I just realized something.

    Even if you have ZERO descritionary income, my way of using an interest earning savings account vs. a mma/HELOC will pay down the mortgage faster where using a MMA/HELOC can’t pay it down.

  306. The Money Merge Account works great for individuals that live in a “feast or famine” career. In other words, many individuals may receive a great income one month and then go a couple months with a very small income. And then they repeat this cycle, again and again. There are also individuals who receive large sums of money on a quarterly or semi-annual basis. If this type of client has plently of limit on their HELOC, the Money Merge Account offsets interest accumulation when the money is received and also allows the money to be withdrawn when needed on the low-income months. This allows the bulk of the money to remain in the HELOC until the very last moment, offsetting interest accumulation for the maximum amount of time. So whether the client is paid consistently or sporadically, the Money Merge Account is a very powerful program.

    Also for investors – the Money Merge Account is perfect. The result will differ from the homeowner who wants to pay off their home, but the process is the same. If you are an investor who believes in using the equity in your home, which is taken out in the form of a loan to invest somewhere that yields a higher return than what you are paying, this program can accelerate the process. Even investors receive paychecks or dividends from something in order to pay expenses. This is usually deposited into a checking account until it is used to pay bills. Use the Money Merge Account the same way. Deposit money into the HELOC, allow it to sit there as long as possible, and pay bills with the HELOC. This does not interrupt the investor’s strategy – it accelerates it! This simple act will offset interest, allowing the HELOC to get paid down faster, resulting in primpting from the program to transfer money to the principal of the 1st mortgage more often. This then increases equity at a faster rate, allowing money to be taken out more often and increase the investor’s portfolio. And this is all done without using the investor’s extra money or having to change their investment strategy!

  307. Sean, remind me again how I can contribute to a savings account with ZERO discretionary you twit!

  308. Sean, EXPLAIN the whole process. What do I do with my paycheck? How long do I keep it there? Can I use a savings account to write checks every month? How does this all work. You keep mentioning savings account and ZERO discretionary (which for MOST of us is not true again.. most of us have at least $5 left – we’d be in the red or facing foreclosure if tax rates increased!) and how does this work for MOST of us? What is your “system”? You keep posting your nonsense and do not come forward with the detailed process!! Since we don’t have a nifty software program to guide us – what is your friggin plan??? And does it beat MY PLAN which is the Money Merge Account!

  309. Jason V.

    I don’t know it all, and I’ll be the first to admit it. I do, however, learn knew things every day.

    My point above is that the analysis is what drives the projection. By fudging the numbers, it greatly enhances their projection over what it appears you can do on your own, of course only until you plug the real numbers into your own calculator. If the value of the program can stand under it’s own weight, then there is no need to manipulate the numbers.

    Have you actually run your own scenario outside the program? How about starting it with the extra $3,500 that you otherwise wouldn’t have spent? Forget about “huge amounts” as well as “certain timing” and just use your total discretionary income as a once a month pre-pay. You should be able to do it with an online calculator. If it is too confusing with your other debts, try comparing both scenarios on just the primary mortgage (assuming you can get an MMA analysis of just that loan). The comparison isn’t going to be all that much different with or without those other loans as long as the same income/expense variables are used in each system. Then share how your results compare.

  310. Sean, where is my funds if I need it? Do I take out a HELOC too for emergencies? LOL – this is a pain just trying to get you to explain the process! You’re losing the attention of your customers Sean! You see I am willing to have my money work for me as long as I don’t feel like I am writing a check that I can’t recover! And if I might as well get a HELOC according to your plan for emergencies or a couple weeks without income – what is your plan for me. And if I get a HELOC I might as well just use the Money Merge Account and pay my bills like I’ve been doing – nothing different – only no more mortgage in 7 years saving me over 100% of the cost of my home in interest. And a nice nest egg to retire off of. So what about the $3500 that the bank loaned me? Who cares?? Eye’s on the prize folks!

    Describe your MMA-beating process!

  311. Chris – you said “I don’t know it all, and I’ll be the first to admit it. I do, however, learn knew things every day.”

    Great because I am looking for a product to get my mortgage paid NOW not tomorrow. And you sure aren’t offering a money back guarantee or 24/7 customer support.

    Now in answer to your question “Have you actually run your own scenario outside the program? How about starting it with the extra $3,500 that you otherwise wouldn’t have spent?”

    I already did. In my post above I ran the numbers at bankrate.com and contributed my discretionary $1100 + the roughly $228 bucks that I saved by consolidating my car loan into the HELOC as well. That left me paying my home off in about 9 years. I spent $3500 (and remember this is not out of my checking but borrowed from the HELOC so, again, I don’t mind) and STILL beat the “just send your discretionary at the end of the month” scenario. I thought I already answered this.

  312. Chris you also said “By fudging the numbers, it greatly enhances their projection over what it appears you can do on your own, of course only until you plug the real numbers into your own calculator.”

    I’d appreciate if you didn’t use the word “fudging” as if we are manipulating people using inaccurate numbers. If you want to fuss over what is defined as inaccurate – Again I will say the amount of money I make in any given month is NOT accurate nor the same as my AVERAGE monthly income. In a one month snap shot the income projection is corret. And again what is your point being that I will only be paying my mortgage off ahead of the projection!! The goal is to PAY MY mortgage off. Not give myself headaches trying to figure this out on my own!

    Again the part where you say “appears you can do on your own” – well how many times do I need to say .. I am not willing, without a HELOC, to simply send all my extra money away monthly and have it locked into my mortgage. WITH a HELOC I want to MAXIMIZE the use of my income to reduce 1st mortgage principal but also keep my HELOC balance at an optimal level. There are reason why the software will prompt certain dollar amounts, to the penny, at certain times. I have NO CLUE why it tells me this much and what time – but do I care? NO – because… IT WORKS!! And you won’t ever figure it out because that is why United First Financial is a top-notch professional company and stands to make the money and is garnering the publicity it has. The do mortgage acceleration better than the competition WITH a money back guarantee, and with 24/7 support and I just don’t have to worry. Please get off me about this “do it on your own” stuff. I have said I want this done EASILY and also live my life the same as before – and that’s what’s going on here. Three years down the road if I want a car? I just write a check and have full title in my hands and I (not the bank) determine the interest rate! It really gives me flexibility and more security. If I’m gonna go to the trouble to get a HELOC – I feel I have chosen the best method to ensure it’s done RIGHT – that’s the Money Merge Account!

  313. Jason,

    Here are the numbers.

    Interest bearing checking/savings – 5%

    3,000 monthly income, paid 1500 on 1st, 1500 on the 15th

    1,000 montly mortgage
    2,000 monthly bills

    DAY 1

    I deposit the 1500 of income and pay 1,000 mortgage leaving me with 500

    DAY 15

    I deposit the 1500 of income leaving me with a balance of 2000

    DAY 30

    I pay the 2000 in bills and have a ZERO balance.

    I earn interest of 500 for 15 days and 2000 for 15 days giving me a total earned of $6.25 that I can put towards my mortgage at the end of the month.

    I just paid down my mortgage with ZERO discretionary income.

    This is something that MMA CAN NOT DO!!!

    You do not know what you are talking about.

    Using an interest bearing checking/savings account will beat the MMA method.

  314. Chris – Let me phrase it yet another way in regard to the income numbers on the analysis. Some months I make more than others since some months have 5 checks. In a worse case scenario (remember the money-back guarantee is based on this) if I only bring in the amount of my lowest earning months I still pay off in the time indicated on my analysis. Your issue with this “fudging” of numbers is moot! Again, I will always make at least that number indicated on my analysis. If I don’t make that AVERAGE amount, which is what you are looking for, on the lowest earning months – then that is INACCURATE! Then I could ask for my money back! Sooo – don’t bring this up. Pay it off according to the analysis or faster – what’s your malfunction Chris?

  315. Sean, way to go!!! You saved less than a year off of your mortgage!! Woohoo! If indeed you had absolutely zero dollars after you pay for everything not only are you eventually going to lose your home (well maybe an extra $7-$15 will help me stave off the court order for a few more weeks)! The MMA product is not for people you draw up in these scenarios.

  316. Jason

    You do not know what you are talking about.

    I am all ready ahead with zero extra money.

    Now add in extra money per month and I will still be ahead of MMA.

    MMA borrows at a lower interest rate to pay the loan off. Instead of borrowing at an effective rate of say 3.5% to pay 6%, you EARN at 5% which is a better deal. The interest bearing checking/savings will always come out ahead in a head to head comparison using the same exact numbers.

  317. There is a reason why savings accounts earn you higher interest (because the banks use your money since you keep your money in it) – do you think they’ll just let you write checks out there for free? Uhh minus the check write fee your plan falls to shambles? Correct me if I am wrong.

  318. There are no fees involved. Check out Ing direct or Emigrentdirect. I am sure there are others but these are the two that come right to my mind.

    No monthly fees, no minimums, free online bill pay, they can even tie it right into your own personal checking account to make transfers etc….

    You float as much money as you can by using a credit card for your daily expenses, paying off the credit card and bills at the end of the month so you earn a higher amount of interest.

    It is no different then floating your money as much as possible in MMA so you have a lower average daily balance in your HELOC etc….

  319. Also, your HELOC is variable. So if rates go up then you will pay more interest in your HELOC.

    When this happens the difference in interest between what you save on your Mortgage and what you pay in your HELOC gets smaller and smaller. Meaning less money earned.

    Me, I will earn MORE money in my account as interest rates rise.

  320. Jason V,

    You said, “Again I will say the amount of money I make in any given month is NOT accurate nor the same as my AVERAGE monthly income. In a one month snap shot the income projection is corret. And again what is your point being that I will only be paying my mortgage off ahead of the projection!!”

    I believe if you take a closer look, you will see that the analysis already factored in your total yearly income into the equation; not just your 1 week times 4 equals one month. The reason people would come out ahead of the initial projection is due to them finding more ways to cut expanses-the cup of coffee as you like to say.

    Did you figure in your total extra income for the year and the $3,500 when you did your own analysis?

  321. Sean,

    The interest rate is 5% APY .. you’d have to divide your totals by 12 to derive the monthly amounts you think you’ve earned, correct?

    Chris,

    The point then is the customer has to sign off on the amounts they earn in one month on the analysis. Again, I don’t know why – but I don’t care .. if they leave off the extra income – then they also leave off the reduced payoff time. Fine with me.

  322. Jason V,

    I don’t believe they are “leaving off the reduced payoff time”. They are more likely using all your extra income for the whole year in their analysis to make the system look as good as they can. The only thing they are “leaving off” is your actual discretionary income for the year(which is the true monthly average) so your own analysis will look worse when you run the numbers yourself. Most of the people don’t catch this.

  323. Jason,

    I would like to see your explanation of how MMA works for people with no discretionary income. If it does not work for this type of person, you need to be upfront about it.

    I still can not figure out why there are no complaints about the software. Are UFF agents only selling this product to people who do not complain. Is their anyone else intrigued about their being not complaints about the software?

    After following this thread the last few days I can honestly say Jason and Chris have wasted a lot of my time. I know Jason is trying to do his job as a UFF agent and I can appreciate that, but you talk like a politician. You are just not being completely honest, or you just dont understand MMA yourself. (At least Ron Paul is an honest, straight shooting politician. I mainly do not agree with his domestic policies, by the way)

    Either way, I have to get off this thread. To much bickering and not enough raw facts.

  324. Yes, you are correct and I used 6% instead of 5% in my calculation. My mistake.

    5% would be $5.21 instead of the $6.25.

    This doesn’t matter because you are still earning monthly money with ZERO extra income.

    Add in extra money and it only gets better and better.

  325. No Sean what I was saying that you earn 5% over the course if the year, correct? APY and ANNUAL percentage yield. You have to divide your monthly gain of $5.21 by 12. That doesn’t seem to be “better and better”.

  326. That isn’t true.

    I can’t believe you give financial advice to people. All you know is to plug in numbers in a computer program and that is it.

    I earned 500 dollars for 15 days at 5% and 2000 dollars for 15 days at 5%.

    This is the calc.

    Take 5% which is .05
    Divide by 12 for monthly earned = .004167
    Divide by 2 for 15 days = .002083
    Now multiply that number by 500 and 2000 and then add it up.

    1.04 + 4.17 = $5.21 for the month.

    Give it up Jason.

  327. I have said everything I need to say. Anyone with any intelligence will realize that the MMA program is not worth $3,500 and there are better alternatives.

    CYA

  328. Wait! – not so fast – no CYA yet buddy,

    Sean I am NOT a financial advisor! And I am still not following you! I can see the math plainly. I will not have in my checking any more than my monthly budget for the most part. My average balance in my checking is less than $4500 if I were just using my household income (rounded numbers)so I will be able to EARN appx $18 bucks or so to send to my mortgage every month. And at a $200k loan at 6% interest and paying an additional $18 per month I still will have not even saved a YEAR with your plan. Again, how will I “float” my money and pay my mortgage off in much less than half the time!

  329. Thanks for the advice about the IMG stuff though.. MAN I was only earning 0.6% and with them I could have earned 4%!! No gimmicks! Great stuff… but checks go to HELOC and I pay off sooner. I am waiting for Sean how floating my money and earning $18 per month to send to my mortgage will beat the Money Merge Account. 29 years compared to my 7 years. ?

  330. I could accumulate over $2200 in 10 years. That’s WAY better than most checking accounts can claim assuming you float your month expenses on a credit card. But this falls insurmountably short of the 6-12 years average pay off with the Money Merge Account.

  331. Wait, wait. I blame this on how late it is. You are suggesting I keep my discretionary in this account and let it compound. Can you run the numbers on that? I don’t know how to do it without taking hours… I sure don’t think it will come close to the Money Merge Account but I am still curious about the results.

  332. Last post.

    Jason,

    What you are not understanding is that almost all of your pay off is happening because of the extra income alone regardless of what program you are using. Remember, MMA can’t even work without extra money per month.

    All I am calculating is the amount of earnings I can generate per month with zero extra income. If I had 500 extra then I would earn an additional 500 for 30 days at 5% which is another $2.08. At the end of the month I would pay into my mortgage $507.29. This is the 500 extra plus interest earned.

    With MMA and the extra 500 per month you would also generate a few dollars extra per month plus the 500 that goes to pay down the money that you BORROWED from the HELOC to pay down the mortgage. The extra bit of money per month is the difference in interest savings vs interest paid.

    The difference between the two scenarios would only be about 3-6 dollars per month. It is a small difference but in the end with the interest bearing account you would pay off the mortgage a little bit sooner AND save $3500.

    The bigger the money gets, the more extra money you could earn but the interest bearing account always comes out ahead. If rates start going up, the interest bearing account does better and better compared to MMA.

    There is no magic with MMA. Almost all of the pay down happens with extra income that you would all ready have no matter what program you used. The little bit of money that you earn (this means money that you conjure up that you didn’t have) with MMA does very, very little and the interest bearing account will beat it by a small amount.

    All MMA does is maximize that little bit of money you earn every month between interest saved vs interest paid on the HELOC. So instead of making 4.21 extra per month, you make 4.25 per month.

    For your 3500 investment you aren’t seeing much return and could beat it by a few months or so and not spend the 3500.

    That’s it, I am really done now.

  333. Sean you said “The bigger the money gets, the more extra money you could earn but the interest bearing account always comes out ahead.”

    Prove it. I want to see the numbers. And you are still missing that the HELOC allows me to pay sums to my closed end mortgage NOW that I don’t have otherwise .. amounts GREATER than just my discretionary! It’s my discretionary that keeps my open ended HELOC balance lower though to pay less interest on that than I am reducing off the primary. You are wrong. Your system will not even tie the Money Merge Account but end up behind. Your “last post” does not prove a darn thing. Where’s the proof. Do an “analysis” for us genius. Use round numbers.

  334. Where is my emergency money? The interest I’ve saved in my checking/savings? I’d have to refi! If I need to make a large purchase I still have to rely on the bank to set the rate since I don’t have enough liquid equity to tap into for ME to determine the interest rate. You still haven’t proven the numbers Sean! I can leverage money from the line of credit to offset thousands and thousands in interest and pay very little with my discretionary helping to keep HELOC balance low. Sean still is a long ways away from making statements like “last post”

  335. Guys all talk and no walk. Nothing the theoreticals from people like Sean and Chris. If you wanted to start paying off your home sooner NOW.. are you gonna rely on these two or United First Financial? lol – I think I made the right choice with the Money Merge Account.

  336. Jason V,

    What were the rates/terms of all three of your loans and the Heloc that you shared in your 4:57, July 24th post?

  337. I had used about two years on my mortgage and paid some extra to principal during that time. There was one mortgage with a 6.25 rate and another with a 10.25 (80/20 loan). the auto loan was a 4 or 5 year term I think and the rate was like 13% or something ridiculous. The HELOC was is 9% variable of course.

  338. I think it’s funny how you are just sitting around trying to figure out how to do this yourself. It’s hilarious. Yes, you need an account that functions as a HELOC (and you need it tied to the home since you want the tax deductions right?) – and yes you must figure out how much to transfer to principal out of the line of credit and how much to leave in the HELOC to keep the interest rates down. You’ll never figure it out. Harj Gill has a good idea and it will work better than what any other plan would for most people but United First Financial has perfected it and actually has a phone number to speak to an actual person if you have any questions. Personally I’ve never had to call and ask them any questions relating to the software since once you get it the person sits down and explains it and sets it up according to your financial situation. But the common denominator here is the use of the open ended HELOC to drive these style of programs. It is awesome.

  339. Yes I am back.

    Do this Jason, very simple.

    180k 6% 30 yr

    Lets use my example above with respect to income and the 500 extra per month.

    Scenario one, add in 507.29 extra per month towards the mortgage.

    Scenario two, add in one lump sum payment of 6,000 per year.

    Lets say you BORROW that money at ZERO percent interest. Your extra 500/month goes to pay that back. It would take you all year to pay back the 6,000. So once per year you would put in 6,000.

    Run the numbers on any available mortgage calculator on the web and what do you get.

    The lump sum will beat it by ONE MONTH.

    Now add in the fact that you are paying interest on the HELOC so it would take you longer to pay back the 6000 because some of it goes to interest and that you paid $3500 for the program and which one do you think will come out ahead now? Yes, the interest bearing account will with monthly payments to the mortgage.

    Now add in the fact that I have an extra 3500 and it gets even better.

    What, rates went up…….. it gets even better.

    With MMA what do you do incase of an emergency? You would use the HELOC. With the interest bearing account you do the same thing. You open a HELOC, which you can do for free, but you would only draw from it in an emergency.

    You got taken.

    If you don’t understand that MMA is not the most optimal way then you simply are stupid and you deserve to spend 3500 for the “priviledge” of using MMA.

  340. Yes I am back.

    Jason do this.

    180k 6% 30 yr

    Use my numbers for income and the 500 extra per month.

    Scenario 1

    At the end of every month you pay down your mortgage by 507.29.

    Scenario 2

    You put in a one lump sum of 6,000 per year.
    You are putting all your money in your HELOC and your extra money goes to pay down the 6k. To make it easy lets say your HELOC is at 0% so we don’t even have to figure out how much interest you would PAY into the heloc. 500 per month extra, so you pay off the 6k in one year. Of course the balance would be higher because you don’t want it to drop below your income that you put into it but that doesn’t matter since we aren’t paying any interest on the money yet.

    This is what MMA is doing. You take a lump sum and pay down your mortgage. Your extra funds go to pay that lump sum back WITH interest and your income is used to drive down the average daily balance so your actual interest paid on the amount borrowed is less but you are still paying some interest on it.

    Run the numbers on any mortgage calculator and what do you get?

    The lump sum beats the interest account by ONE MONTH but this is without paying any interest on the borrowed money and with out taking into account the $3500 that you paid.

    Now, add in that you are paying interest on the HELOC and that you paid 3500 dollars and which one do you think will come out ahead now. Yes the interest bearing account will.

    Not only will I beat you by 2-3 months but I have 3500 to invest which makes it just that much better.

    What, interest rates went up, I do that much better.

    With MMA what would you do in an emergency? You would use your HELOC. Well with the interest bearing account you would open up a HELOC also except you would only draw on it in an emergency. You can open up one for free so no cost to you even if you never use it.

    If you are not convinced then you are too stupid to realize what is really going on. If that is the case, than paying 3500 for MMA was probably ment for you. Me, I will beat you by 2-3 months and invest that 3500 and make even more money in the end.

  341. Jason V,

    I’m not sitting around trying to figure out how to do this myself. There is nothing to “figure out”. I already know how to do it, it is not complicated, and it will beat your system every time. I outlined it in my very first post. If I don’t even use an interst bearing account, and save my $3,500, I come out better than the MMA. If I use an interest bearing account it comes out even better for me. If I apply my $3,500 instead of save it, it comes out better still for me.

    I’m just curious what your numbers were.

  342. Sean I see what you are saying. Cool – but I’m still a happy customer! I can’t believe a checking account can pay that much interest.

  343. Sean can you go to my website and send me an email since I don’t want you to post yours on the blog – I have some more questions!

  344. Here’s what I don’t understand: If my mortgage interest rate is 6%, and I can either pay $500 extra on my mortgage or pay $500 (after taxes also) into a retirement account with an 8% return in the long term, why would I choose to pay down my 6% loan? Not to mention the extra savings I get by deducting my mortgage interest payments for federal income tax.

  345. Your right.

    You will, in the end, get a much better return.

    Invest in a vanguard index mutual fund and I wouldn’t be surprised if you got an average 10% return over the next 20 years.

    Some people feel more secure if they can pay off their house and have less expenses per month.

    Nothing wrong with that, just depends on what is important to you.

  346. Please, The MMA works like a charm, my numbers are I Have a $310K I/O 30 year mtg. I have only made my 2nd payment on this new refi in July and I will pay off my mortgage in 8.7 years with a savings of $327,765 in Interest. Oh and by the way I will make $250K selling the MMA this year.

  347. Jonathan,

    The interest you pay on your HELOC (check with your tax advisor) can be 100% tax-deduction. That is no excuse. And if you are an investor, why not use the equity you’ve built up to invest?

  348. “why not use the equity you’ve built up to invest?”
    where did he says stocks?

    “Eliminating mortgage debt does not.”
    UNTRUE

    (going along with everyones blunt answers with no explanation)

  349. taken from the title.

    “A “money merge account” is a special home equity line of credit placed on your home.”

    no it isn’t.

  350. Real Estate investment (even if it’s your own home) carries risk.

    Investing money by ‘reducing’ mortgage debt carries REAL risk.

    When real estate and home values go down… the money you locked up as “equity” doesn’t earn you anything, not one penny more or less than if you had a 100% MORTGAGE! when you sell, you will get the same price, whatever that price may be.

    BUT the ‘equity’you paid in can dissapear just as fast as it appeared… it CAN be lost forever!

    Alternative investments also carry risks, EVERYTHING DOES, All investments carry some amount of risk!

    Even, things like US treasury notes, FDIC insured savings accounts, carry risk… inflaionary risk!

    Real estate is NOT a risk free investment!

  351. Make sure you understand what you are really doing if you decide to make any investment, Including investing in real estate by paying your mortgage off faster.

  352. Tim, if you are making $250K selling the MMA this year it seems like you ought to be able to pay off your mortgage in 2 years!

  353. I’ve read both views (for & against)…my husband and I are seriously considering doing the MMA. My husband is sold on it, I am not. Per the UFF agent, we will save approx. $20,000. We currently have a 20 year mortgage at 5.25% and have 16 years left. We could save that much if we put approx. $100 extra down each month into our principal. Maybe what is holding me back is the push of the MMA. Agents boast on the product and try to get you to get everything set up right away, why? They sound irritated when I say, I want to take my time and make sure I understand what we are getting into…after all, this is OUR life and OUR investment. Their high pressured sales tactics just makes me think, they want their commission and who cares if you dig yourself into a hole 6 feet under. I would truly like to hear from people who have actually gone through the program with success ( NOT AGENTS SELLING MMA). But on a blog, how would you know whether someone is truly on the program and just an agent saying they are on the program?

  354. DJ go to mortgage scams. there is a lot of information about UFF that helped me decide not to spend the $3500.

  355. I have read most of everyone message and wow! Everyone here has an opinion about the MMA. I like to address DJ for a short. I became a MMA owner and agent at the same time. This program is very impressive if u take time and study it. I wouldnt make a move either if I felt that I was being pressured into getting this program and agents shouldnt do that. I liked this program because we are projected to pay off our mortgage in 4.25yrs. In April 2007, I had 29.4yrs left on a refi. Prior to that, I was able to find a company that would combine my 1st mortgage with my high-interest 2nd mortgage. Then 6mos later, the MMA came along and based on my descretionary imcome, my mortgage, and other debts of about 20+ credit cards, store cards, 2001 Cadillac DTS, will be paid along with my HELOC in 4.25 yrs. I did make the $3500 investment and according to my financial debt analysis I will save $397,000 in interest and pay out $76,000 in interest when all is said and done. Now I want the 3 skeptics to tell me that I made a mistake and when I invested my $3500.00 to save $397,000.00 so I can tell them where they can go. I became an agent to give back and help others. I do not used the pressure tactic approach because I really dont care whether they get the program or not. I am just satisfied with the fact that I was able to at least offer this program to them so that when they hear about this on the news, they would have had an oppty to get ahead of the game. And to the skeptics, now that I have a home-based business, my $3500 becomes a tax write-off and I know you are smart enough to figure that out. My financial analysis also showed me that I am paying my mortgage and debt off at a rate of 2.3% interest. That means that if this had been a 30 yr mortgage, I would be paying my mortgage back at the 2.3% rate. There is your interest-cancellation this program is speaking off. Im on board for the long haul. I dont even come online to even try to chat with anyone about the MMA. It’s a waste of my time. Jason V! you are just wasting your time chattin with Sean and Chris. They are not going to become agents or get the MMA program, but I can understand the challenge. I hope everyone here has a very nice day and may God bless you with your decisions. Y’all sho do make this hard. lol

  356. super,

    If you go back and re-read all my posts, you will find that I never dispute any of the projections from “the system” analsis. I don’t doubt that it is possible for you to achieve what you have said. However, the fact is, your projection has nothing to do with the MMA, the HELOC or the $3,500 you spent. It has everything to do with how much more of your discretionary income you apply to your loans. The time and interest you save has no relation to your $3,500 “investment”. By shuffling your money through the HELOC, you won’t even generate enough savings to cover the $3,500 cost. These are the facts; plain, clear & simple. Until you actually do the math, you will never understand.

    Sorry super, you are not paying off your debt at a lower rate either. You are paying the same interest rate on less money being borrowed as you pay it down. Talk of effective interst rates is nonsense. Again, plain, clear & simple.

  357. to pay off all that debt in 4.25 years is not the magic of the MMA. It is the absolutely HUGE amount of money you are dumping against your principle.

    with 100K mortgage at 5.5% on a 20 year fixed, to use DJ’s loan, your payment would be $687.89 per month. No matter how you try and do it, to pay it off in 4.25 years you are looking at 2187.89 per month (roughly). You will have very little interest (10-15K) but you need to have the other 100K to pay it off.

    therefore, we are talking about someone stupid enough to have 30K per year in cashflow that could pay off your mortgage that fast, that has HOW MANY credit cards?

    that is just your mortgage. If you really have that much discretionary income (proportionally to your debts), you sir, are a complete and utter fool for having all those credit cards in the first place, unless they are ALL at a lower rate than your mortgage for example.

    it just doesn’t make sense. if you have the cash-flow to pay all of that off in 4.25 years, your would not be carrying those debts at anything over 5% in which case, paying them off probably isn’t the best way to go anyway.

    at least if you are trying to convince people, be realistic. DJ. 100 bucks extra is fine, but you don’t need the MMA to do that. I would rather see that money not get tied up in your home, but put to work in your savings and investments (keep from having to go to 18% credit cards), but again, you certainly don’t need the MMA to tell you to add $100 of your own money to your mortgage. without spending the 3500, you could add 3500 that to your mortgage day 1 saving you $6,500 in interest. thats the concept of the MMA altogether. When you really look though. 3500 gets you 6500 over 20 years. it takes 10 years to double your money at 7%. so in 20 years, you only need a 5.5% (notice this is exatly the same as your mortgage rate) return to get that and you have access to that money the entire time (and its not tax deductible as a payment to your principle).

  358. another key point that i would like to make, is that NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU PAY TOWARDS YOUR PRINCIPLE. THAT 2.3% IS A BUNCH OF BS. your interest rate on the first of your home, if 6%, is 6% no matter what.

    2.3% may be interest you are paying compared to the lifetime initial balance, but whatever you owe, in any given month, times your interest rate (6% or whatever it is) is what determines your interest.

    try and tell anyone that on the MMA, if they start out owing 100K, that their interest is magically 2.3%, you are lying to them. And if you believe that is true, you should not be involved in ANYONES money. the interest rate is what it is, the amount of interest payed is ONLY affected, by how much EXTRA you throw into your principle. that does not affect your interest rate. (yes…that is a period at the end of that sentence)

  359. Explanation of EFFECTIVE interest rate:
    Principal Balance of 100 at 10% annual (let’s keep it simple-I don’t need some wise guy to start bringing in compounding).

    If the principal stays at $100 your interest after 12 months would be $10.

    If you are able to bring the interest assessable balance down to $20 (@10%) you would pay $8. The interest saved is EQUIVALENT to 2% of the original $100 hence EFFECTIVE RATE of 2%.

    All of you skeptics and critics are so smart I thought you already knew that one.

  360. Chris,
    Thx 4 the advice, but Im sticking with my guns on this one. I did read all of your posts. I didnt understand half of them because Im not a mathematician. All this was on my MMA and being that my wife is very happy with it. Im staying with it. Maybe you ought to go http://www.brokerbanker.com and convince this gentleman that the MMA is a joke. If it’s ok with him then it’s definitely ok with me, because he is calling on all mortgage originators, loan officers,etc to share this program with their customer before the banks do and besides that this gentleman owns the magazine company. And by the way Chris, dont give me the analyticals, it’s just a foreign language to me.

  361. to Chris and Wow,

    I got just one serious question and I hope you answer it truthfully. Have you guys checked out the UFF and studied the MMA program like I did or are you guys just guessing here? If you havent done so, then I hope and suggest that you do before passing judgement on me. Im versed on these things. Now my attorney general in my state told us that this program is legit. Im not going to take advice from you guys if you havent studied the program. I got too much at stake here and you guys got a lot of families looking for a way out. If you aint backed up by facts then you guys are stealing their dreams of becoming debt free. And you saw the debts Im talking about, you looking at a poor person that became middle class in a hurry. Guess how I got the credit delimna now. We never had it so when we got it, we didnt stop. We learned a hard lesson. Im talking about from $25,000/yr to over $100,000/yr salary in a real short period of time. You are right about one thing and Im going to confess it. I was a fool but I learned a lesson. This is my way out and Im taking it. Again I appreciate the advice, but Im in it now. Thanks so much for all your help.

  362. Bryan,

    Great, you just provided a wonderful example that further validates my position.
    You start out owing $100 at a 10% annual rate.
    You take $80 out of your pocket and apply it to the debt.
    You now only owe $20 on which you pay $2 interest by years end.
    What rate did you pay on the money you borrowed? $2 divided by $20 is 10%.
    What rate did you pay on the $80? You paid 0% because you didn’t borrow $80.
    There cannot be an interest rate on money you don’t borrow to begin with. The $100 has nothing to do with the equation, because you only borrowed $20. You have to pay interest on that $80 for a year in order to use that same $80 in your yearly calculation.

    The same would be true if you reduced the principle by $6.67/mo for twelve months instead of making an $80 lump sum payment. You’re always paying 10% on the balance only. Unless your intent is to deceive yourself and/or others, effective interest rates are useless.

  363. super

    Yes, I have studied the company and the program. But, I went a step further and actually studied the math. The information I have shared is impartial. I have nothing to lose by discussing this with others, because I am not trying to sell anything. If there was any value at all to the program I would be on it myself. The company is “legit” in that it is legal. The true advantage to the program lies in the hands of the seller, not the buyer. It is much wiser for me to tie my own string around my finger as a reminder to send extra money in with my mortgage payment. If you want to pay someone else $3,500 for that string, feel free. Besides the expensive reminder, there is only one other benefit that I see, which is the income you could make as an agent. I wouldn’t have a problem with people selling it, if they would show the client the real amount of discretionary income used in the analysis, and that they are really only buying a $3,500 piece of yarn. I’m not going to laugh when this program finally goes away. I‘ll be just as sad then as I am now for all the folks that bought into it.

  364. Chris,

    It is sad that you don’t really get it. First of all, who said that the reduction in principal is “out-of-pocket.” Second, accusing me of selling the equivalent of snake oil is an attack on my character which is unfounded. I did my due diligence as well.

    I have studied the origins of this concept. I have studied the debt to income and loan programs in foreign countries. I have tested countless analysis’ against mortgage “extra payment” calculators, investment calculators, etc. I have investigated the tax laws governing the mortgage deduction and the like.

    I stand by the FACT that this is great program that offers numerous benefits to the homeowner. Is it right for everyone? Of course not. Is it some silver bullet? No. It is simply a tool. A very good tool.

    People ridiculed Ted Bennet in the late 70′s when he identified the tax code allowing pre-tax contributions for retirement planning. The 401K! It is now a household word. Oh, and by the way, not all financial planners agree that that is event the best way to put money into investments for retirement. Nonetheless it is a great deal for many.

    This concept is not going to go away. In fact it is an emerging market here in the U.S. More and more wholesale lenders and retail banks are offering “Asset Manager” type accounts and there are new “just like MMA only cheaper” companies crawling out of the woodwork.

    Be careful making presumptions about what agents are telling their prospects to sell the program. I’m sure there are people in whatever line of work you do that are unethical or ignorant or both.

  365. Bryan,

    In your example you said “if you are able to bring the interest assessable balance down” (from $100 to $20). If this reduction in principal is not out of pocket, please tell us where it comes from. We all want to know. It surely isn’t going to come from the few pennies you save by running the magic software and borrowing the $80 from your HELOC.

    The only thing I have discussed with you is the topic above. You came up with the self-described term of “snake oil” all on your own. However, that term does appear to be fairly fitting. From the encyclopedia, the expression is applied metaphorically to any product with exaggerated marketing but questionable or unverifiable quality.

    Why don’t you go ahead and outline the “numerous” benefits to the homeowner for all of us critics to see. Does one of those benefits include the FACT that the program lies about the actual amount of the client’s discretionary income that is used to make their projection? If the software is so sophisticated and the math is so brilliant, it ought to be smart enough to be truthful with people about these basic but important details.

    The 401K is a household word, and so is Tulipomania, at least in my house.
    Besides, who cares about past successes and failures of supposed “too good to be true” products. We are only talking about this one.

    You say this concept is not going to go away. I never said it was. There is nothing wrong with the concept of mortgage pre-payment. What I did say is that this particular program will go away. I’m betting that it will go away, or at least be significantly modified as far as price and disclosure goes. And when it does, it won’t be the same package as it is now.

    Two of the main selling points of the program are that only a small amount of discretionary income is necessary and that a large amount of interest is saved using the line of credit, when in reality, the opposite is true. Large amounts of discretionary are required and very tiny amounts of interest are generated using the HELOC.

    Does the fact that there are people in every line of work that are unethical and/or ignorant make it ok to mislead people in order to sell them this particular program? I think not.

    You’re going to have to move way up the scale of argument quality to prove that this product in its current form is a great or even good deal for many. The fact that you’re even on here having to defend it, strengthens my argument that this program can’t stand on its own good merit.

    Anyone interested in a $3,500 tulip bulb?

  366. Chris,

    I’m not going to have to move up my quality of argument because there is none. You continually misconstrue and manipulate everything that is said anyway. It’s not worth my time and effort.

    I know that I don’t lie or mislead people. There have been numerous posts on this site that have explained many things that I don’t have to reiterate and you have chosen to ignore them or spin them.

    While you are planting tulips and saving the world from big bad MMA agents, I will continue to do what I know is right as I answer to an authority much higher than myself and I know that I am in His will.

    God Bless.

  367. Bryan,

    Nice try. Go ahead and claim ignorance, but it is you, through the product you are selling, who misconstrues, manipulates, misleads and spins the truth. You may be in His sovereign will, but you will still be held accountable for your actions.

  368. i really would like someone like supertruckerups to explain how it is the MMA that amazingly cuts down the time to 4.25 years and not almost exclusively, the dollars you send from your other assets or income to pay it off.

    if you have that much to prepay it with, i still contend you shouldn’t have credit card debt.

    the EFFECTIVE rate calculation. Bryan, that is entirely misleading. You are paying a 10% interest rate. Chris is right. Every other dollar you pay off (the 80) comes from somewhere else. how does it not come out of pocket. respond to that please.

    if i start out with 100 owed. my MMA software tells me to pay 20 bucks to my payment, and then i pay back my equity line 20 bucks, and somehow i only have $2 in interest, you would be correct.

    the problem is, the only way for that to be the case, is if the rate on the loan was 2% in the first place.

    the effective rate means nothing then. get a loan for 200 then, and just pay 100 of it off immediately, then the magic 80 dollars. look at that. a 1% effective rate.

    so all you do then for the MMA, is tell someone to refi, cashout as much as they can, and immediately put it all back in. their effetive rate could be less than 1%. Is that really whats happening….no

    I have looked at the concept and software a great deal. I would not be speaking against it otherwise.

    It is a good tool for someone who needs $3500 worth of discipline, or cant understand to just pay their extra money to their mortgage. I contend there are very few people who need a $3500 motivation.

    Something that you, as a purchaser, can simply choose to become a seller of. the lack of necessary qualification alone is a problem.

    Anyone could sign up and tell people their effective rate is 0.000000001%. I could probably even make the numbers show that. is that not misleading?

    “I will continue to do what I know is right ”

    if what you KNEW to be true, turned out not to be, when would you want to know?

    you don’t see a problem in a mysterious $80 for example. please explain how that did not come from the client but comes from utilizing the MMA?

  369. Here is what I do not understand; I had an Analysis run by a UFF agent. They asked me my budget, when I get paid, my monthly expenses, etc. I have a few credit cards and a small balance on a boat loan so those all got paid off by the HELOC (in theory). The Analysis showed I was going to pay off my home in 14 years. The Analysis showed my monthly budget, which I checked against my numbers and it was correct. It also showed my monthly income as 4 times my weekly, as I get paid weekly. This Chris guy seems to think that is some big deal. But my budget has always been based on a 4 week month, as that is the safe way to base it. If I base it on my true monthly income and it is a short month, my paycheck does not arrive before a bill comes due and that is a problem. Now I am not an idiot and I know that this means I have more discretionary income left over than my budget takes into consideration. But right now what happens to that money? I end up spending it. The UFF agent pointed this out to me and said that part of what this program does is monitor your cash flow and maximize every penny. That makes a lot of sense. If the program is going to monitor my cash flow and spend those extra discretionary dollars on my mortgage before I spend them on ice cream or beer, that is a good thing. Now as for doing this with a savings account, well, I could have done that before, but I never have, at least I have not done a very good job. The UFF agent left me with the money back guarantee, which basically said that if the numbers I gave the Analysis were correct, and if I followed the program, that it was guaranteed to work or I could get my $3500 back. Pretty straightforward guarantee. I did go play with some numbers on an extra payment calculator and compared them to what Chris said about using a savings account and found out that he was almost right. The problem is though that he left out of the equation that the interest on the HELOC is tax deductible and the interest on the savings account has to be accrued, plus it is taxable. When I factored that in, the time value of making the payments earlier using the HELOC saved almost a year over trying to do it with 5.5% savings account (a little over 11 months). And here is the problem I have with that. A long time ago I read that the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. So, even if it only saves me the 11 months of interest savings and the future value of 11 months of mortgage payments, this is still more than 5 times the cost of the software and this software looks pretty dang easy to use. So the software was a means to an end that paid for itself. It will do something I previously struggled with doing on my own, and it did not cost me a dime in the end to use it. Seems like a good deal to me. I do not understand all these money merge bashers (or maybe I do). It is sort of like someone who spends every weekend standing in front of the Ford dealership telling folks they are stupid to buy a Ford because a Buick is better. You would start to wonder why it is so important to them and why they waste so much of their their time telling other folks what they should, or shouldn’t buy. Of course, it makes sense when you find out their Daddy owns the Buick dealership.

  370. Sam,

    I left taxes out because they don’t sway the results in favor of the MMA. The savings account comes out ahead whether taxes are applied or not. I am quite confident that it is you who left out part of the equation when you ran your own numbers. Think about it. With the HELOC, you are paying interest and getting a small tax break. With the savings account, you are earning interest and paying a small amount of tax. Which one do you think will come out ahead? The savings account, of course. Run the savings account scenario with the extra mortgage payment, and don’t forget to include the interest earned(less tax). Now add the $3,500 to the equation and it comes out even further ahead. Apples to apples, that’s all I ask. Suppose you just save all your money and pay off the entire mortgage when you accumulate enough in the savings account to do so. Sure, you would pay tax on all of the interest earned, but you would have offset that amount by itemizing the tax deductible mortgage interest all the way along. Using the HELOC, the tax savings on the interest paid is actually offset by a lesser tax credit on the reduced amount of mortgage interest paid.

    One more thing to remember, if the interest rates were higher on the other loans that were rolled into the HELOC, then of course you will save more money than you would by just continuing to pay those debts off. But, this assumes either you already have a HELOC, or that you can get one for less (startup & fees) than the amount of interest you will save by making the switch. That is called debt consolidation, and to be fair, that would have to be factored in along side the savings account method as well.

    I’m sure if you stare at your numbers long enough, you will realize that you are not saving anything at all over the savings account method because the other method is actually costing you. Now we are back to the value of that piece of yarn. Is it worth $3,500 to you to have someone else tell you not to spend your extra money on ice cream & beer, or can you do it on your own? Besides, the software isn’t going to force you to follow its promptings. You will ultimately be making your own choices regardless of which system you use.

  371. Chris,

    What you don’t get through your thick head is that the Money Merge Account software helps you to have a much higher chance of STICKING with the program!! Yes, you could use the savings account and use that small amount of interest + discretionary every month BUT … will most people stick to it?? Probably not.. changing the way you look at your budget is worth if for many.. including me!!

    Bug off Chris!

  372. Chris forgets the actual article for which he is posting it appears. In case he forgot, and I paraphrase “On the other hand, you could theoretically do it yourself. Start using a high-interest checking account (like Electric Orange, which gives you 4% interest) and then send every cent you can to the mortgage payment… Although that seems like a better financial deal than a money merge account (and it is), it has one huge risk: you. As we’ve discussed before, individuals are a huge risk because of their desire to spend money that’s “just sitting there” in an account. It wouldn’t take much at all over thirteen years for you to take money that’s already yours and spend it on something else.

    One psychological advantage of a money merge account is that it encourages frugality. Why? It puts you in a situation where every dollar you spend basically goes onto your mortgage principal. See that bag of chips at the store? Is it worth it going onto your mortgage? You can use your own home as a psychological tool to be thrifty – and thus get out of the mortgage sooner.

    If you have a lot of financial discipline, doing it yourself is a better deal than a money merge account. However, if you’re prone to spending extra at all and have found yourself saying, “Well, I have plenty extra right now, so I can afford it,” then a money merge account is probably the fastest way available to you to pay off your mortgage.”

    Regards Chris!

  373. Chris falls into the financial discipline category and doesn’t understand that he is a minority, though everyone has the ability.. most of us simply spend too liberally. Bottom line. Chris quit thinking that just because you know another way to do it on your own doesn’t mean the product will actually work for them.. BETTER! Bottom line: MMA will give that OTHER group a better chance at paying off their home much sooner simply because it worked for their personality type and helped change perspective and negative tendencies and traits that got them into the mess they are in. It’s only a matter of time until the banks start offering a similar Money Merge Account program. For those that understand banking in-depth and from what I’ve heard.. people who use these principles reduce bank risks and work for a Win-Win for both lenders and borrowers. Money Merge Account-type programs will be mainstream in just a few short years. (But Chris wouldn’t understand)

  374. Jason V

    And here you are, waging your last small argument in favor of the MMA, waving your banner that reads “it might be a really good motivational tool”. But, does this notion really work toward the software’s advantage, or is it just one last desperate attempt to try and prop up those with monetary stakes in the program? What really motivates people to do this is the time and money they save, not the software. If they were told the truth, they would be even more excited to learn how they could do even better on their own, for free. Caution, telling people the truth will not help them decide to send you $3,500.

    Here is an interesting statistic. The national average rate of success for those who make resolutions at the start of a new year is about 8%. Do you think the MMA is going to generate much better results, considering that this commitment will likely require significantly larger portions of ones time & money as compared to the average resolution? What happens down the road when the majority of the “don’t stick with it” folks decide to quit spending extra money on their mortgage and invest it, save it, or spend it on other things instead? The person who wasn’t using your system will be much better off, because they didn’t spend one single penny for the ability to pay down their mortgage in the first place. Had they done the MMA, not only will their payoff date be further out than the ultra simple, easy, free method of doing it yourself, but they will still be in the hole on the line of credit.

    I completely understand the need to try and help overhaul the way people think about and deal with their finances. However, sending already cash strapped people $3,500 further into consumer debt in order to stimulate them is not the solution, especially when it makes zero financial sense to do so. How about encouraging people to do this:

    Cut expenses.
    Spend wisely
    Pay off consumer debt.
    Stay out of consumer debt.
    Build an emergency savings account.
    Build wealth through investing.
    Pay off your mortgage faster if that is your goal. For free.

    Please don’t send me any money, the above advice was offered at no charge.

    Jason said, “Bottom line: MMA will give that OTHER group a better chance at paying off their home much sooner”.

    Just under the “bottom line” lies the fact that Jason has in his possession zero statistical data showing that the “OTHER” group has a better chance than the non-MMA group at paying off their home any sooner. What we do know, is that he and other MMA proponents have been proven wrong over and over again in this thread and many others, yet most never seem to rise above their fractured pride to admit it.

  375. Jason V

    And here you are, waging your last small argument in favor of the MMA, waving your banner that reads “it might be a really good motivational tool”. But, does this notion really work toward the software’s advantage, or is it just one last desperate attempt to try and prop up those with monetary stakes in the program? What really motivates people to do this is the time and money they save, not the software. If they were told the truth, they would be even more excited to learn how they could do even better on their own, for free. Caution, telling people the truth will not help them decide to send you $3,500.

    Here is an interesting statistic. The national average rate of success for those who make resolutions at the start of a new year is about 8%. Do you think the MMA is going to generate much better results, considering that this commitment will likely require significantly larger portions of ones time & money as compared to the average resolution? What happens down the road when the majority of the “don’t stick with it” folks decide to quit spending extra money on their mortgage and invest it, save it, or spend it on other things instead? The person who wasn’t using your system will be much better off, because they didn’t spend one single penny for the ability to pay down their mortgage in the first place. Had they done the MMA, not only will their payoff date be further out than the ultra simple, easy, free method of doing it yourself, but they will still be in the hole on the line of credit.

    I completely understand the need to try and help overhaul the way people think about and deal with their finances. However, sending already cash strapped people $3,500 further into consumer debt in order to stimulate them is not the solution, especially when it makes zero financial sense to do so. How about encouraging people to do this:

    Cut expenses.
    Spend wisely
    Pay off consumer debt.
    Stay out of consumer debt.
    Build an emergency savings account.
    Build wealth through investing.
    Pay off your mortgage faster if that is your goal. For free.

    Please don’t send me any money, the above advice was offered at no charge.

    Jason said, “Bottom line: MMA will give that OTHER group a better chance at paying off their home much sooner”.

    Just under the “bottom line” lies the fact that Jason has in his possession zero statistical data showing that the “OTHER” group has a better chance than the non-MMA group at paying off their home any sooner. What we do know, is that he and other MMA proponents have been proven wrong over and over again in this thread and many others, yet sadly most never seem to rise above their fractured pride to admit it.

  376. Chris how old are you. You are college age or less. Bottom-line. That would explain your stubborness…

  377. Chris said “Just under the “bottom line” lies the fact that Jason has in his possession zero statistical data showing that the “OTHER” group has a better chance than the non-MMA group at paying off their home any sooner.”

    Well I do have proof. ME! It works for me – and didn’t work before because I just wouldn’t stick to it. I’m done with this blog. If you still want to complain – then complain to the author of this story ‘Trent’ .. you are an idiot!!

  378. U1st financial is mortgage acceleration being marketed through Multi Level Marketing. The two primary ways mortgage acceleration is marketed in the U.S. is: Multi level marketing or 1st Lein HELOC. They both yield the greatest return for the companies marketing them. MLM is a pyramid and most know how the money flows with that scenario. 1st Lein requires the refinancing of your primary and all the fees that are associated with that.

    The core concept of how the system works is sound and uniform. The way the program is marketed is the problem and will result in the same type of federal interaction as was seen in Australia. Already, the California Mortgage and Lending division has taken action against companies who have stepped over the line when it comes to marketing. History will repeat itself.

    Now some facts about Speed Equity. Harj has been giving away the software to the viewers of the original channel 3 story for free. This has made U1st and their multi level marketing agents very unhappy. They (if the news story was about them at all anyway! see below) lost out on thousands of leads and millions of dollars. That means thousands of people are using Speed Equity in Las Vegas. Harj has been doing webinars for these people 100 at a time, again for free. I don’t blame the U1st people for being angry. If I owned a gas station and the station across the street was undercutting me by 50 cents a gallon, that would be very upsetting. But, and listen up U1st salespeople, if you start to say, his “gasoline” won’t power your car and it actually does, two things will happen:
    1. you’re going to look ridiculous as they start posting to blogs like this and
    2. you’ll do damage to the reputation of all the systems by undermining the credibiltiy of the core concept.

    Now for a revelation that would be very easy for anyone to check as I have: the NBC station in Vegas never claimed to be test driving the U1st financial system. Not a single person at that channel is using the MMA system.

    Also, I watched the news report on youtube and you’ll find that right in the middle there’s a picture of Harj’s book! Own Your Own Home Years Sooner! Nowhere in the report is there a mention of U1st Financial or MMA. As a matter of fact, how do we know the story isn’t about Tardus’ product since it costs just about the same! Has anyone else starting using Tardus’ product? Why hasn’t U1st attacked Tardus or CMG’s product? Heck, even Washington Mutual has a 1st Lein product that can be used as a mortgage acceleration program.

    I would encourage everyone who is interested in mortgage acceleration to take a look at all the companies. Why not? You’ll have everything to gain and you probably should compare them side by side anyway. Should you order Harj’s book? Sure, they’re in print. If they weren’t why are they popping up on Ebay with a years subscription to his software? Or on Amazon? I think you actually get two books for the price at his website, so you could sell one on Ebay or give one to a family member.

    U1ST, Tardus, CMG, etc should be thrilled with this strategy. If people understand the concepts as outlined in Harj’s book the knowledge could drive more customers to them. Shouldn’t it?

  379. Darren said “Nowhere in the report is there a mention of U1st Financial or MMA.”

    Uhh.. FALSE.. the guy in the video is using the MMA software.. notice it says ‘Money Merge Account’ right towards the beginning.

    Speed Equity works. The software is more “do-it-yourself” oriented. For instance it wants YOU to decide how much of the HELOC you should put towards first (it recommends $5k) but what I like is for the software to tell ME how much, to the penny, to transfer to maximize interest savings and also keep HELOC balance low.

    Darren don’t make it sound like the news special didn’t mention Money Merge Account because to prove you wrong (again) they mention “$3500 for the software – but it works” as well. Is the Speed Equity $3500? No. If fact it’s free for some people. But they are of course referring to United First Financials product. Get your facts straight.

  380. Thank you for pointing out my mistake regarding the story, but most of all, thank you for pointing out that Speed Equity does work. So I heartily recommend to everyone to try and compare them both, especially if you have a spare $3500 for Tardus or U1st whichever product this story is really about.

  381. Darren,

    Again you seem to be a little misleading. The $3500 I paid for the product was not taken out of my checking or savings account. I leveraged my line of credit to cover the cost and is included in the payoff plan. And, I stress this, if I have a question I need answered would I want to wait for a conference call to ask Harj a question or flip through the book or would I want to simply call a toll-free number 24/7 with help readily available? Hmm.. I still am a satisfied U1st customer (just like everybody else). The name of the game is to find a solution that works for your needs.

  382. Also worth noting that UFirst is not currently bogged down in a lawsuit.. (cheap shot I know – BUT.. )

  383. Enough bickering about our own opinions, time to look at some facts and figures.Ok, I understand that applying additional principle makes the balance go down, got it. I teach people about maximizing present value cashflow and how to be a bank. I keep hearing that this software cost $3,500, but read on a website that it runs anywhere from $1,800-$4,000. Does anyone know who has it for $1,800? What I would like clarification on is how the MMA account informing someone to transfer capital presents additional savings than those generated by using a disciplined bi-weekly program like I am currently on. Here are the stats; I have a 5/1 ARM with 4years left at 4.875% the balance is $416,786, pmt should be $1,693; I pay $1,794.
    My second is fixed at 7.84% the balance is $116,720, pmt should be $903; I pay $1,081.
    My real rate of interest is 5.52%.
    I am on a bi-weekly program so I make an additional payment per year. That means I pay an extra $407 a month including the extra whole pmt per year. According to financial calcs that means I have shaved 7 years & 4 months off my mortgage, saving $156,990 in interest payments.
    What would MMA software increase my reduced mortgage time and interest down to?
    Thank you,
    Kevin Osborne
    http://www.oemoney.com

  384. If you only have 4 years left to pay off you mortgage – then stick to what you are doing now, Kevin.

  385. Kevin, this program works off of your discretionary income which is a large part of this program – how much money do you have left over at the end of the month?

  386. And it’s not about sending all your left over money away to your mortgage company in a traditional sense. It’s more along the idea of making money you are not using now to offset interest now – until you spend it. I love it!

  387. FACTS and only FACTS

    If I get a loan for $100,000 I get to invest that $100,000.

    Then I own %6 interest on that $100,000 = $6000 However I make %6 in my invested $100,000 = $6000 that equals $0 made $0 lost.

    HOWEVER, the $100,000 loan happens to be a home loan. I get to write of the interest. Now that $6000 I lost turns into a $4500 loss. Therefore I made $1500.

    The liars love to tell you how much interest you will save over the life of your loan, but they don’t tell you how much you lost by not investing.

    BEFORE you waste your $3500 make sure you
    1) max out your 401k match
    2) max out your roth ira
    3) put something away for your kids colledge coverdale first then Educational savings account
    4) invest the $3500 you would spend on the program

    STOP saying that the tax writeoff on your home is bad. That is not an TRUE comparison. You have to account for what you DO with the loaned money.

    Everytime I see this Huckster comparison, I feel sorry for all those that have bought into this lie.

    I can’t wait to here the responses that say “you just don’t understand the program”

    Ok let’s just deal with the program
    If the money shuffle (heloc – mortgage) does save any money then it would HAVE to be more than $20 a month. This would have to be money created through the shuffle to do anything. This is because a person could just take the $3500 and invest making %8 on it a year. That is $23 a month.

    Just my humble opinion though.

  388. Ted, I do not even know if that was supposed to be English? Discretionary income is a very volitile term… I am the group leader of Person to Person lending, currently generating a diversified interest rate of 24.06% on 240 loans. I have been using $65,000 of the credit card companies money and earning an FDIC insured 6%. I think to do a true comparison you need to just use the oportunity cost of the capital that I provided in my figures. Let’s say that I have an extra $407 per month available as discretionary income to invest against my mortgage. I want to know how much faster biting at the principle will pay off the loans as opposed to the bi-monthly with extra I am paying now.

    Thank you,

    Kevin Osborne

  389. I am looking into a MMA and read that this won’t work for everyone. What are some scenarios where the MMA wouldn’t work? Also I already have a large HELOC for my 2nd morgage (fits the criteria for MMA). I have read that with large HELOC’s the MMA will just focus on reducing the HELOC first because the interest rate is higher than the primary mortgage. Instead of paying the $3500 right now couldn’t I just use the HELOC as a checking account to start paying down the loan, then begin the MMA at a later date since that is what the MMA would tell me to do? Am I missing something here?

  390. Kevin, I will still need more information. How much money do you make per month? How often are you paid? How much is your home worth (so I can determine how much equity you have). You can fill out the free analysis (just need your numbers, not account info) at the website. Also I am curious about your method of using credit cards to earn interest?

  391. Kevin I signed up for this since I am curious about the ideas behind it. Thanks (I’m 23 – never missed a payment)

  392. After looking at that further it is a very interesting concept. I’d like to be a lender… send me an email from the site and we can talk more.

  393. “Discretionary income is a very volitile term”

    You critique my English by saying I use a term I didn’t even use. You guys are crazy if you fall for this. Go to http://www.scam.com and look for the scam alert thread. While MMA are not a scam they are a REALLY bad idea.

  394. Yea have you heard that everything is a SCAM at scam.com? Is someone selling something and making a profit? Scam Scam Scamalamadingdong. Google something and put the word scam after it and you’ll see that EVERYTHING is a friggin scam. Ted get outta here. And your previous post didn’t make much sense at all. The discretionary bit was probably directed at me and not you.

  395. How come people like Ted don’t realize the only complaints are from people who either don’t understand or who are not customers and not in a position to make statements as the customers of United First Financial – such as myself – do not complain and are happy with their decision. Customers of United First Financial think it’s a REALLY GOOD idea.

  396. Kevin,

    I got your message but I cannot respond to my inbox on Prosper? I cannot respond to your email although my contact info is on the site and the time zone is Central. Any time after 7pm. Later!

  397. Jason, like I said. It is NOT a scam, just a REALLY bad idea. I point you to the thread at Scam.com because the analysis is thorough. Anyone who reads through the thread and has undestands the concepts of addition, multiplication, subtractions, and percentages can figure out how stupid the MMA program is.

    Just my humble opinon though.

  398. >

    OK you lost me. If you are a math wiz and it turns you on to spend time from your busy life to figure out how much and when and all that crap then fine. Money Merge is good for those that just want an easy solution in a manner that is workable in the sense that I don’t feel like I am doing anything different.

  399. Jason, your telling me it is easier to open up the software on a regular basis and do what it tells you to do, than set up an automatic recurring payment through your bill pay that you never have to touch again?

    You must be crazy.

    1st – I think it is dumb to pay down your mortgage. I know there are pros and cons to this, I just believe the cons outway the pros. I don’t care what you believe with regards to this

    2nd – Assuming you want to pay down your mortgage. It will take you longer to use the MMA than it would to set an automatic payment that equals the same discretionary income that you would pay using the MMA.

    I love the “I don’t feel like I am doing anything different” comment In other words. For people who are controlled by the psychology rather than logic.

  400. Dumb to pay down the mortgage… LOL that is the craziest thing I EVER heard. Tell me again why I would not want to free up that cash flow of not having a mortgage payment anymore? And having an asset that adjusts with inflation about as well as any other investment? And with a free and clear home I am one HELOC away from rolling in dough? That extra money I can use to put into an interest bearing account and retire a millionaire. Whatever man.

  401. Typical banker rhetoric – it’s good to be in debt. I’m sure the banks love the idea that people like you wish to continue to pay them their interest and make twice the value of the home in profit… yank.

  402. Jason.

    Ok I’ll tell you again. Since you asked. I’ll base it on 1 year to make my point. (however I want to point out that there is a strong psychological foctor for all the people who are controled by their mortgage that it would be better to pay off their mortgage)

    I have $100,000 in my pocket. I have the choice to pay off my $100,000 mortgage or stick that $100,000 in a 12 month CD. My mortgage is an effecive interest rate of 4.5% (plus it allows me to take all my charitable deductions). My CD is 6%. I lose $4500 on my mortgate, I make %6000 on my CD. Therefore, I am $1500 ahead for just that year. It compounds after that.

    So LOL if it is crazy to be ahead %1500 then call me crazy.

  403. OOPs sorry, I labled the dollars with % there should be a $ instead of a % infront some of the figures. Sorry about that. I’m sure you can figure out which ones should be corrected.

  404. The one thing that I have not heard from all the clients that have bought the program (MMA) is complaints. All of them seem to be very happy and if this is a hoax why are there not complaints. All of you that say this can be done on your own know less than 2% of the US. even knows about Bi weekly programs much less about a program that knocks off 1/3-1/2 of their interest, saving in most cases $100,000′s of dollars.

  405. TYPICAL. Why do you change ths subject we are talking about. I’ll assume that you concede that you have been proven wrong in regards to it not being smart to pay off your mortgage

    Now lets move on to your newest assumption. No complaints. Like I said it is NOT a scam or hoax, just a really bad idea. Just like paying for a Bi-weekly program is a really bad idea. IF you wanted to pay off your mortgage, it is FREE, CHEAPER, and EASIER to set your automatic bill pay to send extra money to your mortgage each month.

    Why don’t people complain – easy people that where duped into paying for this program have spend the time to identify the flawes.

    If you are a user of this program, you should start complaining, you have been duped. You have lost money and you are working harder to achieve inferior results.

  406. Ted you said “I have $100,000 in my pocket. I have the choice to pay off my $100,000 mortgage or stick that $100,000 in a 12 month CD. My mortgage is an effecive interest rate of 4.5% (plus it allows me to take all my charitable deductions). My CD is 6%. I lose $4500 on my mortgate, I make %6000 on my CD. Therefore, I am $1500 ahead for just that year. It compounds after that.”

    Well you did make money. You lost money to make it though. In regard to the tax write-off I do recall somebody saying that your scenerio here would be like spending an extra dollar to save 33 cents. The end-goal here is to have no debt. And then you can invest the equity in something that has a higher yield, if you know what you are doing. The money merge account can streamline the process by increasing your equity faster to potentially earn more by re-investing the home equity.

  407. I would agree that it would be ideal to for those who have a higher discretionary and ideal positive cashflow would be best suited to incorporate setting money away for 401k (contribute up to what company matches), maxing out Roth IRA, using the HELOC-mortgage program to accelerate the equity to then use to re-invest and make more money which then in turn speeds up the payoff time on the mortgage. By using my interest-saved dollars to invest rather than spend a dollar to save 33 cents. Customers using the HELOC-mortgage programs such as the Money Merge Account can then move into bigger and bigger houses, increase their cashflow and can turn their home into a valuable liquid investment whose more rapid increase in equity means more reinvested into a better performing alternative – if that’s what you want to do.

  408. Ted you also mention the effective interest rate you notched down to 4.5%. Using the Money Merge Account it would be the same as having a less than 2% interest rate! It depends on your situation. But let’s keep the debate going here. No matter what your goal is – the Money Merge Account from United First Financial can be a great option with pratically 100% customer satisfaction and a money-back guarantee. Another component is the spending habits of many. The way the software acts as a financial dashboard and shows the exact payoff date which adds an effectivie psychological benefit as the date changes with every deposit and expense is great for me (as sticking with it is the hard part of any debt pay off plan) and I have 24/7 customer support. And I rolled the cost of the software into the HELOC). And just because there are lucratuve commission plans for those that want to turn it into a full or part time basis doesn’t mean that these types of business models is always a SCAM. Just like Avon, Advocare, and others – they offer a quality product – more costly but you know what you are getting. It is low overhead for the company and I think the marketing is just fine. It’s no different than a mortgage broker making $5k off of a home sale or a realtor getting 6% of the purchase price of a home, or commission paid to an insurance agent. Just because there are a lot of commission structured business models that are scams – not ALL of them are!! How a business chooses to make money should be of no concern here. The VALUE of the product is what should be debated taking into consideration all things.

  409. Let me clarify above: “Using the Money Merge Account it would be the same as having a less than 2% interest rate! It depends on your situation.”

    That is my situation I used as an example. You won’t know how much you can save until you have a free analysis prepared by a certified United First Financial agent.

  410. Ted, not to mention the interest you pay on the mortgage/HELOC is potentially 100% tax deductible. (consult your tax advisor – blah blah)

  411. Ok, I see that I can’t communicate with a financial illiterate. Let me just give you numbers and see if you can refute

    Following taken from thread at scam.com
    A UFF agent said this: “Ok to start I am an agent for UFF and here are the numbers for the senario that you have provided

    Mortgage 250K, 6.5%, 30yr fixed- payment of 1580.17, no escrow
    Income… Once a month- $5000
    Monthly living expenses 3019.00
    Thats a discretionary income of $400

    What I got was a payoff of 18.3 yrs or 219 month”

    Posting those numbers into an amortization table shows this: 214 months.

    If you add a 1 time $3500 into the amortization table, you get: 208 months

    That’s an 11 month difference, or almost a full year.”

    JASON if you feel it is easier to pay $3500 so you can be bound to a software program, just to take a year longer to pay off your mortgate than to simply set up an automatic bill pay then let me know. Otherwise, verify the math and then respond.

  412. Ted there are a lot of factors here which can be discussed. The example you provided was a one time a month paycheck. It is more advantageous when you are paid multiple times per month. Also, and I’ve covered this before, it is NOT smart to send all of your discretionary via auto bill pay into a closed end mortgage. What if one needs that money? And as for the example – obviously the Money Merge Account will not benefit that person. Now for you? That may be another story. Run your numbers – then decide for yourself whether you think the Money Merge Account can make sense – investor or not. Don’t take someone elses scenario as proof one way or the other. Think of it this way: Do you really think United First Financial is raking in money by creating a program that will ALWAYS take longer pay off then simply sending in your discretionary every month? LOL. NOT EVERYONE qualifies.

  413. Ted, just ran the numbers. Simply by getting paid twice a week at $2500 instead of once monthly at $5000 – the payoff goes from 18.3 to 13.2 years. And by following the Money Merge Account program you are eligible to pay less interest than compared to a standard 30-year mortgage at 2.852% fixed. $194,875.98. So you don’t know the program or what you are talking about, Ted? – a financial illiterate indeed.

  414. CORRECTION: Twice a week? I am living up to your classification of “financial illiterate” huh? lol – I meant bi-weekly at $2500 instead of $5000 monthly. The frequency of pay is another key.

  415. Yes you are finacially illiterate, you showed yourself again. If you use bi-weekly you created an an entire extra payment a year. I gave you numbers so you could compair apples to apples, not apples to oranges. Either compare against my scenario or create another scenario.

    STOP LIEING

    Then end goal has to be who has the most money at the end. Avoid %language becuase you just don’t understand it. I’m sure you can understand the concept of who has the most money at the end.

    As for having money in case of an emerency, when did I say not to have a HELOC?

  416. “Do you really think United First Financial is raking in money by creating a program that will ALWAYS take longer pay off then simply sending in your discretionary every month?”

    Yes, you paid them money didn’t you.

  417. I’m glad I can finally say that you have basically admitted that someone with the following scenario should not particpate in the MMA program

    Mortgage 250K, 6.5%, 30yr fixed- payment of 1580.17, no escrow
    Income… Once a month- $5000
    Monthly living expenses 3019.00
    Thats a discretionary income of $400

  418. I just ran your numbers with your hidden extra payment every year and I get 13 years. You still lose, and all I had to do was set an automatic bill pay of an extra $200 every 2 weeks. Instead of $400 a month.

  419. Ted,

    Tell me why I went wrong with MMA:

    I have a $160,000 interest only mortgage 6.279% and approximately $1,000/ month discretionary income. My MMA analysis showed a payoff in 7.3 years and $279,500 interest saved. This also included approximately $45,000 in other debts consolidated into my HELOC. By taking that same $1,000 discretionary income, and applying it to my monthly mortgage, the payoff is 11 years and $146,347 interest saved. This does not include the $45,000 debt payoff. I simply compared my MMA analysis to an interest only mortgage calculator from dinkytown. So, by using MMA, I will save $133,153 more than simply applying my discretionary income on my own and payoff my mortgage and all of my other debts approximately four years sooner as well.

  420. I just have a quick question. I was presented this MMA program for the first time last week. I am very interested and I have been trying to do a little research into it. It sounds to me that the program does work–I think everyone can agree with that. My concern is not paying the $3,500 but can I pay that amount outright and not with the HELOC and what happens if in one year the company goes under? The program is web based. I have read several times that there have been no reports to BBB, but there is a possibility that things could go wrong. Do I just need to decide this is a risk I am willing to take or is there some sort of protection against this happening?

  421. That sounds like a good deal Larry but I bet a lot of the savings are from the debt consolidation. What interest rates are you paying on the $45k?

    To pay off a $205k loan at 6.279% in 7.3 years you need to make payments of $2,923.36 a month. Doesn’t matter how you look at it. So I’m guessing your $1000 discretionary, plus (about) $800 from your current payment means you’re currently paying about $1000 a month for that $45k debt? Or am I way off?

    Just curious.

  422. Larry, how many years did you have left on your mortgage? Is the $160,000 your principle remaining.

    Also, are you positive that your MMA analysis didn’t create an extra payment a year by using the bi-weekly smoke screan?

    Let me know and I’ll run your numbers.
    Your debts complicate the issue so I’m not sure how to handle them. I can say without a doubt that if your debts were a higher interest rate than your HELOC then you saved money by rolling them into your HELOC (this is not a MMA strategy, this is get your debts as low interest rate as possible). Is the extra money you are saving by having the debts in the HELOC part of your $1000 discretionary? If not add the extra saved, that is your new “REAL” discretionary.

    Respond and I’ll run your numbers.

    One last thing, you should probably stop thinking about interest saved, this is not an appropriate way of looking at it. Rather think about interest you would have lost. This way can also look at interest you would have earned if you put your money to work for you. Then it is easy to think about how much you earned vs how much you lost = profit.

    MMA loves to make you think about interest saved because it confuses the truth.

  423. Ted, how many people are going to stick with your plan? Ask yourself why there is a market for this in the first place. Can you do this yourself? Yes. Why aren’t you already? Hmmm.. UFF/MMA is here to stay.

  424. “How many people are going to stick with your plan?” Answer – anyone who wants to reduce their mortgage faster (I am willing to accept there are people out there that need this pscychological benefit)

    “Why am I not doing it?” – Answer, it is not smart to pay off your mortgage early. (here is a research article that proves this point from the Chicago Federal reserve http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=891546)

    So Jason now that you have been proven wrong, it is your moral responsibilty to help others by communicating how poor of an idea it is is to use the MMA. Your moral character is in question.

  425. One thing you need to be wary of in these troubled times for banks is if you have an unused portion of your HELOC and they feel your in a declining real estate market they can shut down the unused portion of your line.

  426. “The propensity of debt-averse households to forgo tax arbitrages is related to the findings in Graham (2000), who shows that many corporations give up SUBSTANTIAL TAX BENEFITS by holding TOO LITTLE DEBT.”

    Here it is folks. The income tax is a fraud. And the Federal Reserve and it’s system should be abolished IMMEDIATELY. The Fed is the reason why government debt is never going to be repaid, they caused the (Bernanke admitted) Great Depression, and I also remember Baron Rothschild stating “Let me control a nation’s money and I care not who makes the laws.”

    Carrying debt is a GOOD thing because it helps you pay less TAXES.

    INCOME TAX FOR MOST OF US IS NOT REQUIRED.

  427. On May 12, 2006 in Peoria, Illinois, the attorney for the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) begged the court to dismiss all charges against IRS victim Robert Lawrence in federal District Court.

    The motion for dismissal came on the heels of a surprise tactic by Lawrence’s defense attorney Oscar Stilley.

    The tactic threatened exposure of IRS’s on-going efforts to defraud the public. The move put DOJ attorneys in a state of panic that left them with only one alternative: beg for dismissal, with prejudice.

    http://www.givemeliberty.org/RTP2/UPDATES/Update2006-06-09.htm

    Paperwork Reduction Act. The OMB # is a fraud.

    The 16th Amendment:

    “It was not the purpose or effect of that amendment to bring any new subject within the taxing power.”

    [Bowers v. Kerbaugh-Empire Co., 271 U.S. 170; 46 S.Ct. 449 (1926)]

    http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Taxes/16Amend/LegIntent16thAmend.htm

    Most people are VOLUNTARILY paying an unapportioned direct tax on their labor and it not required by any statute.

    I wouldn’t trust the stocks at this time. Get out of debt. That’s MY plan.

  428. OMB number on your 1040 is a fraud and does not meet the guidelines of the Paperwork Reduction Act.

    Also in regard to the 16th Amendment. It can’t be any more clear. The 16th Amendment does not provide authority for a direct tax on incomes, but only authority for an indirect tax on incomes. A direct tax on incomes is a tax that diminishes the source of the income. An indirect tax on income is a tax on unearned income or profit; such a tax leaves the source of the income undiminished. Twice during the debates on the 16th Amendment (S.J.R. No. 25 and S.J.R. No. 39), Congress rejected the idea of bringing direct taxes within the authority of the 16th Amendment. Then twice more, on July 5, 1909, Congress rejected the idea by direct vote of the Senate. Despite this congressional hostility to the idea, the IRS and the lower courts admit they are collecting a direct tax. At a minimum this is scandalous. In reality it is probably criminal.

  429. I dare you Jason to not pay your income taxes. I do agree however, that if we didn’t have to pay taxes (wich are basically social engeneering us) then having a write off would not make sense.

    I’m giving up on trying to convince you that paying off your mortgage is a bad idea. You are obviously controlled by your emotions.

    So let’s keep the argument at – Is an MMA good or bad. It has been proven to you that it is bad.

    I like you to Jason. I am am curious if you have any personal beliefs as to why mortgage debt is bad. I bet we can find some common ground.

  430. http://www.givemeliberty.org/RTP2/UPDATES/Update2006-06-09.htm

    Is one victory. The DOJ dismissed the case with prejudice (meaning they cannot charge him for the same crime again). The OMB# again I said is a fraud. The income tax is not applicable to many people. My personal belief is that I am not liable for the income tax. Attorney Oscar Stilley agrees. This is also why people are pushing for the “Fair Tax” national sales tax and get rid of the organized crimesters that make up the IRS. Millions do not pay income tax.

  431. You dare me not to? Millions do not. Direct, unapportioned taxes on most domestic labor is unconstitutional. So there you have it. A lot of court cases have come down the pike of people defeating the IRS in court. The Federal Reserve system must be abolished. Get out of debt. I do not trust the stock market because it will come tumbling down soon and many will lose a ton of money IMHO. Click on my name to learn more about Russo’s America: From Freedom to Fascism.

  432. Ted

    I have 30 years left on my mortgage, balance $160,000. The monthly payment on the debt ($45,000) I consolidated with my HELOC was approximately $975. The interest rate on my HELOC is 10%. The $1,000 discretionary income does not include the monthly savings from the consolidation.

  433. So your saying you don’t pay taxes.

    Also, I didn’t say anything about trusting the stock market. I said other investments. Buy you can’t wrap your head around the concept that your house is an investment.

  434. Larry just dealing with your mortgage if you put an extra $1000 towards it a month without doing the MMA your payoff would be 8.75 years. There is no way that using the MMA will pay it off in 7.3 including your HELOC debt. You are missing something in the MMA analysis. This is a great example as to how they have convinced you that you are not adding as much extra as you really are. This thread doesn’t work well for you to post all your data. Go over to scam.com and look for the money merge account alert. You will be able to post your monthly data and get help to see where the “extra” money is coming from.

  435. I didn’t say I didn’t pay my taxes. I am simply pointing out a problem. I LOVE PAYING MY TAXES!

  436. Ok Jason.
    So you think people should buy the MMA software from you, because
    1) it will cost them money
    2) it will lose them money compared paying the same amount of discretionary income as they would with the mma
    3) spend more time opening up software and messing with it than doing an automatic bill pay
    4) pay off their mortgage even though there are HUGE tax benefits because we shouldn’t be paying taxes anyway
    5) You love paying taxes.

    I think I have summed up your position well.

    Thank you for the conversation.

  437. To all the financial “gurus” expressing themselves here,

    Here’s my situation. 15 yr fixed mortgage at 6%, 9 yrs left (currently paying $1,144/ mo., including taxes and insurance into escrow. balance; $60,000). Last year started extensive home remodeling renovation. Needed to open a Home Equity Line of Credit to finance this project. Opened one at amount for $170,000 at 7 1/4%. Presently, have drawn $131,000 from this line with monthly payments on this currently at $765. I have a car loan of $320/mo. (1 yr left). So, $1,144 + $765 + $320 = $2,229 total monthly (not to mention living expenses/bills of gas, elec, phone, food, etc. etc.) And, I am not finished with the remodeling (figure will need another $25k approx.)
    My monthly incomes are: $2,350 (paid bi-weekly) and $710 monthly rental income. That’s $3,060 total monthly income. Since my equity line payments have risen steadily I am finding it VERY difficult to meet my needed monthly payments for everything. OK. Time to consolidate (I guess) the “biggies” (mortgage, equity line, and car loan) into a refinanced new loan of $224,000 (payoffs of above, closing costs and $21,000 cash out to finish remodeling). Monthly payments calculated on this new loan at 6.5%, 30 yr fixed will be $1,826 (including prop tax and home ins for escrow). That’s a savings of $404 from my current monthly outlay of $2,230 for the 3 “biggies”. Ok, I have lowered my total monthly outlay but I have also gone back to a 30 yr loan and, at my age of 54 this is not a very attractive outlook of having huge monthly payments well into retirement. (I do plan on staying in my home for yrs for those who want this info).
    This is where the consideration of using the MMA program to pay down the term of this 30 yr fixed loan and pay it off in much shorter time is attractive. I have spent a good part of this evening reading the blog comments on the MMA (and other matters here discussed). A basic component of this back-and-forth here is why spend $3500 for a product that is for something that you could do yourself (added payments to monthly principle). I know there are more +’s and -’s to the argument (discipline involved in using the program etc.) What should I do? And, thank you all for the above contributions to this blog. Sincerely, Jim

  438. Ted – people who want to get rid of their mortgage payment (the savings on the taxes is just great but when they finally pay off their home and have a great investment that can ride the tide of inflation and no longer have a mortgage payment it’s worth it) can do so with the Money Merge Account. If it means they accomplished that goal much sooner then they would have otherwise – then that’s wonderful.

  439. Jim and others why won’t you just submit your numbers through the website and then make a decision? I’m not going to take a ton of time to put everything in from this blog and post a question and wait for a response. Just use the website. That way ALL of the information is submitted the FIRST time.

  440. plus you get your analysis emailed to you via PDF and then you can run around and have Ted pick away at it!

  441. Jason stop lieing, the MMA cost more and takes longer and is harder to implement. This has all been proven to you.

  442. Jim you have a lot of variables. Using the MMA will not help you any more than paying any extra income on your mortgage

    Your first need to rethinkg your bi=weekly statment though

    “My monthly incomes are: $2,350 (paid bi-weekly) and $710 monthly rental income. That’s $3,060″

    What is your yearly income? Divide that by 12 and you will get your monthly income. By thinking in bi-weekly terms you are creating only 48 weeks in the year, not 52. This is part of the MMA smoke screen.

    I’d go to a different forum to ask your question. This type commenting isn’t condusive to helping you.

  443. Jim

    If you are truly paid bi-weekly, then your average monthly income is actually $3,255.83, not $3,060. This is $2,350 x (52/4) + $710, which is $195.83 more per month. If you don’t have any discretionary income after expenses, you’re not going to pay off your mortgage faster. If you do, and you just want to pay off your mortgage, there are several things you can do. First, figure out your average monthly discretionary. Send that amount, automatically if you can, in with your mortgage payment each month. If you have enough discretionary, you may want to look at a 15 or 20 year term instead right from the start. If you’re going to be making a larger payment anyway, why not start with a shorter term and a lower interest rate to begin with?

    You didn’t mention anything regarding retirement savings. A lot of MMA proponents talk about paying off the house now and waiting until later to save/invest. You may not have time to do that. My parents, who are around 60 years old, bought a new house about five years ago. They could have paid for the whole thing with cash. Instead they financed 80% of it with a fixed low rate 30 year loan. They don’t mind the payment, because between the tax write off and the higher rate of return their CFP is making them on investments, they are way ahead of the “pay off your house and let your money sit in the walls” approach.

    BTW, the Money Merge Account concept is worthless and the math proves it. The program is full of half truths, and half truths are whole lies. Those who sign up for it are either deceived, or they are just plain foolish. If someone really wants to pay off their mortgage, they can do it for free, and it will be faster, easier and less risky than the ridiculous program from United First Financial.

    The best case scenario for the average MMA user is that they make a huge lump sum payment to their mortgage out of their HELOC about four times a year. If everything is perfect, they will save about $10 each time for a total of $40 per year. Say they do this for 15 years x $40 = $600 and the house is paid off. They have a net loss of $600-$3,500 = $2,900. So how did they avoid all that extra time and interest? Well, it wasn’t traded for the $2,900, it came from your discretionary income. If you do it yourself, you will be ahead of this, especially if you run all your money through a high interest savings account.

  444. The difference though it that this program forces you to pay your money to mortgage first by design. It gives you a greater chance to stick to the program by depositing your income into the HELOC and paying your bills out of it. If you don’t trust yourself to stick with a financial plan (maybe you’ve tried before) go with the Money Merge Account.

  445. Jason you LIE. The program forces you to do nothing. It gives you a suggestion and then leaves it up to you. You are more likely to pay off your mortgage it you decide a specific amount of descretionary income and then send that via bill pay to your mortgage in an automatic fashion. You can prove me wrong on this point by showing me a research study from a a peer reviewed journal. If you can’t do this then you have no research. It has already been proven to you that the MMA is 1) harder and 2) costs more via MATH
    Stop lieing, you have no morals, and should be ashamed of yourself.

  446. I will make no more posts on this blog. But to everyone out there on the fence. Ask yourself what type of person you are. Are you a financial numbers person like Ted or Chris? If you were, you would not have asked questions in the first place. Ted and Chris represent a minority of the homeowners out there. If you are serious about getting your home paid off and want it done right instead of developing a plan that a majority will NOT stick to (even if it’s two years down the road) .. Go with the Money Merge Account. Later.

  447. In fact Ted thinks is better to spend a dollar to save .33 cents. He thinks your mortgage payment is a good thing and that you should pay the banks more than twice the amount your mortgage is for in profit. If you think paying $450k for a $210k home is a good thing – go for it!! Ask yourself: ‘what would you do without a mortgage payment?’

    Now I’m done here.

  448. Ted

    It’s quite comical that Jason rails against spending $1 to save 33 cents in tax but fails to mention the true cost of the MMA which is much worse. In my best case example above, the MMA person spends $1 to save 17 cents. It is more likely that they will save far less, if anything at all.

  449. I am so glad to see that Jason is leaving hopefully you won’t be confused by his lies. Please note that he was unable to defend any of his arguments.

    Here is the conversation in a nutshell and will get repeated over and over untill the MMA agent looks at the truth and not just their sales material

    Let me summarize the back and forth conversation:

    UFF agents: It works…here’s an analogy. See, it works.

    The rest of us: Mathematically, it’s slower, costlier, riskier, and much more complicated. All you need to do is put your discretionary income towards towards your mortgage. We provide proof

    UFF agents: No, it works. You just don’t get it. It’s mathematically too complicated for us to understand. But it works.

    The rest of us: Show us the math. We have the formulas and the spreadsheets. The numbers aren’t too complicated. We’ve run the numbers with past UFF agents. We’ve compared. UFF agents have said their system is slower. I repeate, the UFF system is slower. So, will you, Mr. UFF agent, show us your numbers?

    UFF agents: No. I won’t show you the numbers. But here’s an analogy why you should trust us. People are too stupid to set up an automatic bill pay so they need to pay us $3500

    To the UFF agent- I am sorry your were duped by UFF. It is ok to believe in what you are saling, but once you identify the lie and see the truth, you are morally obligated to stop spreading the lie.

    To the person interested in the MMA
    Don’t do it, MMA it cost you MORE, Takes you MORE time, Is HARDER to implement
    Than setting up an automatic bill pay. to pay extra.

    88The tax implications of paying of your mortgage should be saved for another thread. The MMA agent loves to start talking about taxes to avoid answering basic questions.

  450. Chris, you are correct. It is commical. I just don’t understand how Jason doesn’t realize how he reveals himself to be a scammer when he makes statements like that.

  451. I spending a dollar means I save 17 cents to get out of my mortgage in a third of the time then it’s worth it. Spending a dollar to save 33 cents and have a mortgage payment for 30 years sucks! I want that home paid off. I want the largest portion of my paycheck back in my control. It must be great to be a banker and have my customers think its a good think to pay me over 100% in profit alone in a home purchase.

    It’s a war over your mind no doubt. What sounds right to you. No debt. Or keep your debt because it a good thing for taxes. GET OUT OF DEBT YESTERDAY!

  452. Jason stop LIEING and leave. What sounds right to me is to have the most money. Paying off your mortgage does not give you the most money. Give up on the Tax discussion. This is a MMA thread and you have been proven to be wrong. If you want to argue about paying off your mortgage vs. doing other things with your money go somewhere else

    If you think you can defend the MMA do so, but you know you can’t

  453. I think I have ONE supporter! Thanks Bob. No matter what you think the most money means to ME I look at it this way. I want to free up my month-end cash flow ASAP. Following the MMA program I can still retire a millionaire! Granted, Ted feels you could be EVEN RICHER! BUT (big but) you’ve got to keep on with that mortgage payment for the duration of the terms. I don’t really want anything than to GET RID OF THAT FRIGGIN MORTGAGE PAYMENT and finally go out on the Plaza and not worry so much about what I can afford on the menu this week. And with a plan I know anyone can follow up can a) get rid of your mortgage in 6-12 years. b) retire a millionaire. That’s quite enough for me!!!

  454. Yes, IF you follow the MMA it will reduce your mortgage,(using Jasons terms “you’ve got to keep on with that mortgage payment the duration of the terms”) but it will take you longer, cost you more, and be harder than setting up an automatic bill pay each month. ALL PROVEN. Not just words from Jason.

    You will be LESS likely to have your home paid off using a MMA than sending in automatic payments every month.

    ALL LIES PEOPLE. Notice how Jason is still here. Another obvious lie.

  455. just posted at scam.com but woth reposting here. Pass along to all those who may encounter this program. Well written explaination.

    OK, this is how this guy’s program “works”… Let’s assume my monthly paycheck is $8,000, and on the first day of the month I do the following: Draw $8,000 on my HELOC which is used immediately to reduce my mortgage balance, and b) apply my paycheck of $8,000 to pay down the HELOC. On day 2, therefore, my HELOC balance is zero and my mortgage balance is $8,000 lower.

    In subsequent months, the “cycle” works by paying my expenses by drawing on the HELOC and the HELOC balance gradually rises to $8,000. However, the average balance will only be about $4,000. For the month as a whole, therefore, I have saved interest on $8,000 of the mortgage while incurring interest on $4,000 of the HELOC. Assuming BOTH are priced at the SAME 6%, I saved $4,000 x .06/12, or $20. Over a year, that adds to $240.

    Why the above does not work… The HELOC as a second lien will have a MUCH higher rate. If the rate was double the rate on the primary mortgage, for example, there would be a monthly LOSS (over just paying down the principal yourself). Further, it will take some days for my paycheck to be credited to the HELOC (GMAC takes 2-3 BUSINESS days I think). This will eat into the days of “savings” you receive. Finally (this is important), the date when the mortgage is credited for the extra payment depends on the policies of different lenders. In some cases, a payment will be credited to the balance at the end of the preceding month, which works to the borrower’s advantage, but in other cases, credit is not given until the end of the current month, which would reduce and perhaps eliminate any savings. I calculate that if you have a HELOC that is roughly 50% higher than your primary rate, you’ll probably break even. If the rates were the same, you could pull out ahead SLIGHTLY every month. But you know as well as I know that this is impossible (4 years ago this may have been possible when you could get lines for 4% and a small net gain would be realized every month… anyway, please read on…)

    Another factor? The $3500 on a 6% mortgage would save $210 of interest a year. This ALONE is probably more than what I would save even if my rates for HELOC and primary were identical. Of course if my loan was much larger, there could be a gain, but again, this depends on the spread between the HELOC and the primary rates but again, read on…..

    And the following and last factor is what makes the program TRULY a SCAM… Don’t forget that the $8,000 could have been left in a high rate savings account instead of plopping it into the HELOC (this is the ever-important “opportunity cost factor”). One could argue that money sitting in a checking account (where MOST people leave their paychecks so they can access and pay for monthly expenses easily) yields squat didley. There are full-function checking accounts that offer rates up to 4%. You’ll get at least 4% on that money “sitting around” while you eat away at it each month. That 4% (half the month), would work in the inverse and your YIELD would end up being 2%. So you can add that 2% to what you would probably break even doing the program (at best when taking into account the aforementioned factors). So break even, AND you then lose the 2%. 2% compounded on any amount you plan to pay down the mortgage with is what the “true” spread would be. By being smart with your money, you could in essence be ahead by 2% (compounded interest as long as it takes to pay the mortgage down) over what this program offers. THAT is the bottom line. S-C-A-M. Everyone wouldn’t analyze and obsess over such a program the way I have. There are tons of suckers out there that won’t see beyond the second paragraph in this email. To them the program makes sense – and works.

    Regardless of all this so called magic, the bottom line is that you don’t want to pay down your lowest interest debt. You want it as LOOOOOOONG as possible. Take the money and invest it and you’ll almost guarantee a better return. If you want to go the ultra-conservative route (and in my opinion, the dumb route) go ahead and pay down the mortgage. But don’t pay some shmuck $3,500 for something you could easily do yourself. Don’t be a fool.

  456. Ted,

    Come on with the heloc rates. Your analysis is solid, but if you are in a state where heloc rates are 2X the 1st rates, how about this… in Illinois it’s simple to find a 1st rate at 6.5% and a 7.25% heloc rate – on a middle class home – at today’s rates. Good banks offer the heloc without fees – even w/o the common early closure penalty.

    I’m also curious about how I can get an “almost guarantee”…

  457. I used an Excel amortization table and another Excel spreadsheet to simulate the MMA side by side with making extra payments. I assumed a $240,000 mortgage, 30 years fixed at 7%. I assumed $500 a month available above monthly expenses, and for the purpose of the MMA, a $10,000 HELOC at 9%. I had Excel do a month by month calculation of the HELOC balance, and immediately after the HELOC was paid back down to zero, drew another $10,000 dollars to apply to the mortgage balance. I assumed an interest calculation based on roughly half the HELOC balance as many have noted above.

    After paying down the mortgage and the HELOC, and factoring in the $3500 price for the software, the MMA came in at about $5900 more expensive and took 8 months longer than just applying $3500 to the principal, and adding a $500 extra principal payment each month.

    The key comparison I wanted to make was in regard to UFF’s claim that the mortgage can be paid off with little change to spending habits and without increasing monthly mortgage payments.

    Technically, the MMA claims I don’t even need the extra $500 a month, but I can’t reconcile it with the math that I would be able to pay the mortgage off faster without any extra money. The fact of the matter is, if I didn’t have the extra $500 a month to spend, and really was spending everything I made, there would be no way to pay the HELOC down so that I could draw on it again…until the mortgage was paid of.

    I understand that my paycheck would bring the HELOC balance down, but my expenses would bring it right back up by the end of the month. So even if I’m only paying interest on the average balance, without any extra income above what I’m making and spending, there is no way to pay the HELOC down month over month.

    I’m willing to hear an explanation of how someone with no extra income above what they make and then spend, can pay down the HELOC. And I’ve already conceeded to the fact that the HELOC is accruing interest on the average balance…all that does is bring the interest I’m paying per month on the HELOC down, not reduce it’s balance. Technically if I spend what I make, my HELOC balance will grow by the “reduced” interest I’m racking up.

    I really want to hear how success happens with this plan. Claiming that the plan is not for everyone is also not a good response. UFF’s website states…”Our average customer will pay their 30 year mortgage off within 8 to 11 years — with little change to their day-to-day spending habits and without increasing their monthly mortgage payments.” If I have no extra money above what I make each month, UFF’s statement indicates that I can still be successful, paying off my mortgage in 8 to 11 years.

    Eagerly awaiting, as I’m still willing to have an open mind.

    At this point I’m sticking with my emergency fund in ING and paying the extra $500 a month on our mortage.

    Pete

  458. Pete, you cannot compare the math algorithms of your spread sheet to the MMA software. Your spread sheet is only providing results. It is not actually forecasting ahead (i.e. how much additional principal should I apply and when for optimal results) based on input data like fluctuations in income, expenses and changing HELOC balance. The MMA software actually does that for the user. The software is actually making decisions (suggestions) or forecasting based on those constantly changing numbers. It’s is an easy to follow plan for non-sophisticated financial people.

    Pete, if you are really good with Excel and you understand amortization and disciplined with your finances, you could probably do this on your own and achieve the same results. (Or close to it.) The point is that most people are not. Most people don’t even have a clue what their Truth In Lending Statement really means. This is a great and easy to use system for non-financial people and non-excel users. It takes all the guess work out, makes all the decisions for you based on the circumstances and forecasts outward. If you ever have a problem or a question or unsure what to do, you can call a customer support rep for help for the life of the program. It is not a simple spread sheet program. The argument whether it works or not is over. It is proven and it works. You’ll just have to accept that like the first time I sold a computer automated general ledger system to an accountant. Sure, they could have duplicated it using paper and pencil or even lotus 123, but what is the point? The work is done for you, and is supported for the life of the program.

    All this wrangling when round and round when bi-weekly plans first came out. Bi-weekly plans are now proven, simple and work Just like this does. And while it is easy for a user to use the software, because of all of the intricacies of the software, it is difficult to explain. If people want to pay off their debt and mortgage, this is one method and one tool for them to use. Suzie Orman has her ways, John Cummuta has his and so on and so on. Good luck.

  459. United First Financial just hired P. Thomas Chester as CEO. Mr. Chester is the former Chief Marketing Officer for ING FINANCIAL’s broker division and the former Chief Marketing Officer for Surety Life, a division of Allstate.

    I am sure he will be happy to hear that Pete is taking advantage of the services he used to market. I wonder if even Mr. Chester though could get Pete to look at the math of this correctly.

    Pete and Ted both make underlying assumptions in their math that are wrong so the numbers are skewed. Since they do not fully understand the program it IS hard for them to do an accurate comparison.

    Also in comparing using a savings account – everyone ignores the fact that the interest in a savings account is TAXABLE and must accrue. So even a 5.5% rate is insignificant.

    Few people enjoy playing around with math… and the MMA program is simply a great tool for people who have more important things to do than play around with numbers but who want to get their debt paid down quickly.

    All the skeptics on here want to compare their spreadsheets with the MMA analysis which is also nothing more than a spreadsheet (as United First explains). The REAL MMA software is an algorithm driven program that is easy to use and which performs 20% better than the Analysis software – according to an audit conducted by the State of Utah.

    The company has sold more than 10,000 of these programs over 3 year period, is growing 33% a month and has ZERO complaints in the better business bureau.

    Oh… and for SUE… who has a large 2nd on the heloc. Yes… you could wait a bit to purchase the software till you are about 6 months away from getting the heloc to zero. There are some advantages to getting the sofware early though. One is that it helps you make better financial decisions through the tools that have been integrated into it. For instance would you know which is smarter – financing a car at 4% interest or writing a check out of your heloc at 8.6%? The answer would surprise most people… but the software can always give you an answer based on YOUR variables – not an off the cuff guess.

    Also another advantage to getting it early is that it works by “learning” your budget. The more history is has when it comes time to make a transfer, the more accurate that target number will be (as you know averaging 100 numbers together is going to be more accurate than averaging 10). The more information it has, the better.

  460. United First Financial just hired P. Thomas Chester as CEO. Mr. Chester is the former Chief Marketing Officer for ING FINANCIAL’s broker division and the former Chief Marketing Officer for Surety Life, a division of Allstate.

    I am sure he will be happy to hear that Pete is taking advantage of the services he used to market. I wonder if even Mr. Chester though could get Pete and Ted to look at the math of this correctly.

    Pete and Ted both make underlying assumptions in their math that are wrong so the numbers are skewed. Since they do not fully understand the program it IS hard for them to do an accurate comparison. They simple choose the scenario they want… and go from there.

    Also in comparing using a savings account – everyone ignores the fact that the interest in a savings account is TAXABLE and must accrue. So even a 5.5% rate is insignificant. On the other hand any interest you DO pay on the heloc side is probably going to be tax deductible (consult a licensed tax advisor to make sure it is true in your circumstances) and when you take that factor into account you easily see that MMA beats anything you can do on your own.

    UFF says that you do not need to increase your monthly mortgage payments. That is true. You will send additional PRINCIPAL payments, but not every month – only when the software determines it is the appropriate thing to do… then it determinds a specific amount based on your individual cash flow history. Your minimum monthly mortgage payment does not change though.

    Also… UFF customers do not have to change their spending habits to make this work… the software adapts to your budget. As long as the client gives the agent an ACCURATE picture of their budget and their spending habits as they are TODAY, than the software is guaranteed to perform as good, or better than that analysis. If a client WANTS to change their spending habits… it will affect the outcome… for better or worse. Whatever happens though… the software is always going to determind the quickest way to zero without the client having to spend hours playing around with spreadsheets and reworking their budget.

    Few people enjoy playing around with math… and the MMA program is simply a great tool for people who have more important things to do than play around with numbers but who want to get their debt paid down quickly.

    The skeptics on here want to compare their spreadsheets with the MMA analysis which is also nothing more than a spreadsheet (as United First explains) so, of course, they are going to make the mistake of thinking they are doing just as good a job. However, the REAL MMA software is an algorithm driven program that is easy to use and which performs 20% better than the Analysis software – according to an audit conducted by the State of Utah.

    The company has sold more than 10,000 of these programs over 3 year period, is growing 33% a month and has ZERO complaints in the Better Business Bureau.

    Oh… and for SUE… who has a large 2nd on the heloc. Yes… you could wait a bit to purchase the software till you are about 6 months away from getting the heloc to zero. There are 3 advantages to getting the sofware early though. One is that it helps you make better financial decisions through the tools that have been integrated into it. For instance would you know which is smarter – financing a car at 4% interest or writing a check out of your heloc at 8.6%? The answer would surprise most people… but the software can always give you an answer based on YOUR variables – not an off the cuff guess.

    Also another advantage to getting it early is that it works by “learning” your budget. The more history is has when it comes time to make a transfer, the more accurate that target number will be (as you know averaging 100 numbers together is going to be more accurate than averaging 10). The more information it has, the better.

    The 3rd is that it is GREAT and keeping you MOTIVATED and ontrack. The skeptics like to make fun when we say that… but it is true that less than 5% of people stick to a diet. Have you ever joined a gym? Yet in that same audit by the State of Utah the company found that 98% of our clients were loggin in monthly… so you can see that the discipline factor is there. Make it easy and they will do it!

  461. Ben you are continueing a lie. Prove me wrong. Post numbers. Everytime a MMA agent post his/her numbers are inaccurate or misleading.

    People don’t pay attention to these people untill thay can prove they are correct. The best case scenario they can generate about $20 through the heloc money shuffle. The good thing is you can get $20 a month by putting your $3500 in savings.

    The more they provide “talking” without any substantiating fact the more you should realize how big of con artists these people are.

    The challenge. MMA agents provide me your BEST case scenario. Provide the mathimatical variables. Don’t cheat and don’t lie. Let’s see who wins.

  462. As for duplicating the program being hard. STOP lieing. It has been proven your program is HARDER, COSTS MORE, and TAKES MORE time. Read the thread before you come here and spread more lies.

  463. “All this wrangling when round and round when bi-weekly plans first came out. Bi-weekly plans are now proven, simple and work Just like this does.”

    There ya have it the MMA works just like a bi-weekly plan. Quoted from an MMA agent. I know he/she didn’t intend this, but it is a good example of proving a little truth with a lot jiberish to make the jiberish sound true. Psychological manipulation.

    With the bi-weekly it is just as stupid to pay someone to use a bi-weekly payment plan, as it is to pay someone for a program that COSTS MORE, TAKES MORE TIME, and IS HARDER.

    Of course banks love this they make money.

  464. Oh wow! Not only do I not have any new information, but now I’m a little insulted, a little angry, and quite a bit worried for folks who would be suckered into the plan.

    Where to start…

    “Pete, you cannot compare the math algorithms of your spread sheet to the MMA software. Your spread sheet is only providing results. (YOU SAID IT, NOT ME :)) It is not actually forecasting ahead (i.e. how much additional principal should I apply and when for optimal results) based on input data like fluctuations in income, expenses and changing HELOC balance.”

    Just as a point of reference, I do forecasting and analysis for a living and my degree is in Mechanical Engineering with minors in Mathematics and Physics. No, not everyone has that education, or even the desire of those pursuits. That is irrelevant based on some of the comments made by UFirst reps…or should I say, is the meat of the UFirst marketing plan?

    Without any historical reference data to build on I can assure you that your program is incapable of making an intelligent forecast of one’s spending/savings habits based on a set of intial inputs. To contradict me on this point would go to discredit any of the mathematics incorporated in the MMA software.

    I can also solve the problem of when the best time to deposit funds toward the principal balance of your mortgage is…right now. From a mathmatic perspective the best time to pay on principal is always as early as possible. Please, please try to tell me that your algorithm will at some point actually calculate that you’ll save more money by strategically waiting for several months to make a principal payment. It will only discredit the MMA even more. There is a case to make, based on interest accrual, of when to pay on the balance within a single month’s billing cycle, however, any variation from that is always a loser.

    Ah, and now the UFirst marketing plan…

    “The argument whether it works or not is over. It is proven and it works. You’ll just have to accept that…”

    This coming from an organization whose agent has already admitted above that the numbers in the examples are a little funny.

    So far the only thing proven to me is that with about 20 minutes and Excel I can save $5900 and 8 months.

    To tell me to just accept something unexplained when your trying to sell it me, is an invitation to me to be foolish.

    I can also say without fear that my spreadsheet is as predictive a model as the MMA software is at the intial point. If the MMA model contains breakthrough mathmatics in predictive analysis, then what fool would use it for paying mortgages…for goodness sake…the scientists working on the cure for cancer need this type of math! Scociologists working on community modeling need this type of math! Human development doctors need this type of math! Break open the MMA software and let’s start saving the world!

    So far, the only value I see in the MMA is that it is a form of checkbook on steriods. It is a tracking utility that will do some calcualtions of future savings (this is merely using financial formulas for the time value of money) and will flag the user when they have money above their expenses (Quicken, or even a paper checkbook will do this too.) It does seem to consolidate all of one’s financial variables, which is valuable indeed, but to claim a special algorithm that will allow the prepayment of a mortgage without any additional funds being applied to the principal is quite a stretch.

    “All this wrangling when round and round when bi-weekly plans first came out. Bi-weekly plans are now proven, simple and work Just like this does.”

    Bi-weekly plans are easliy explained and supported by basic mathematics. You pay extra toward the principal.

    That was a poor arguement choice if you’re still trying to convince me that one can “…pay their 30 year mortgage off within 8 to 11 years — with little change to their day-to-day spending habits and without increasing their monthly mortgage payments.”

    “Pete and Ted both make underlying assumptions in their math that are wrong so the numbers are skewed. Since they do not fully understand the program it IS hard for them to do an accurate comparison. They simple choose the scenario they want… and go from there.”

    And you know this how? You have yet to inquire what my calculations are, or are you so used to making mathematical assumptions with no knowledge that you instinctively know…MMA is good math, just accept it…Pete and Ted are wrong, I just know it.

    If the MMA is so powerful, why does it matter what scenario is chosen? Those are some pretty basic numbers that were selected. Explain to me how they are specifically chosen to prove my point and fail in the MMA model.

    I can tell you one difference in my analysis and the MMA model…I don’t hide the extra paychecks of those who are paid every week, or every other week. Perhaps, that’s what is different about the MMA algorithm…it deviates from true mathematics. I will say though, that my assupmtion is that the math in the MMA is clean, but the inputs are manipulated for the customer to justify the $3500 price tag. It’s already been confessed to.

    What has been proven to me at this point is that you count on the portion of the population that doesn’t “…enjoy playing around with math…” ,or “…who have more important things to do than play around with numbers…”, or better yet “…don’t even have a clue what their Truth In Lending Statement really means” to drive sales of your product.

    When the success of your product depends on the ignorance of your customer, you are taking advantage of people, not helping them.

    This is my favorite quote though…

    “I wonder if even Mr. Chester though could get Pete and Ted to look at the math of this correctly.”

    I don’t even know Ted, but in this case I’m sure I can speak for both of us when I say…We will eagerly await contact from Mr. Chester.

    Pete

  465. As I was looking at my on line money merge account, I decided to google the words “money merge account”.

    All I can say is that there seems to be a lot of heated debate.

    If possible, I would like to add a few comments. Not as a person giving advice, but as an American homeowner.

    I have worked in finance and banking for many years. So I understand all of the in’s and out’s of paying off your mortgage vs. not. There is an endless debate that could be had on this subject. But for me, I purchased the program because I wanted a program that changes with my ups and downs, -and because I am an educated consumer.

    I started using this program about 3 years ago and I am now 9 months away from paying off my house, including my HELOC. Initially, my payoff analysis showed that I would pay my house off in 6.2 years. But for those of you who have never used the program, this system “learns” and adapts to every aspect of your household financial life. It’s not just about paying an extra $200 a month, or paying Bi-weekly payments, or paying your house off because you have an “extra $100k sitting in your pocket, or deciding on your own how much to transfer” LoL. It’s about real life. Life doesn’t just stay at “$200″ extra a month. It doesn’t sit still and collect dust, life moves up and down. People’s finances change, their expenses change. Everything changes.

    Not to get to deep, but 2005 was the first year since the great depression that as a nation, as a people, we had a -negative savings rate. That means that as an entire people, on average, we all spent more than we made that year. For those financial pro’s on this site, what do you think that means? It means that if there isn’t drastic change, and quick, this beautiful country that i love is either going down, or it will be owned by foreign countries. Goodbye freedom!

    Because of my background in finance and banking, I am very familiar with all of the financial language used to try and sway people into never paying off their mortgage, and “maxing” it out to the hilt to “potentially” gain huge financial rewards in the far and distant future. I understand this, because I use to advise this. I also understand that there is HUGE financial incentive for me to advise this, regardless of how well the investments I advised on perform.

    I still advise making sound investments. I have many investments which I continue to invest in, in conjunction with paying off my home.

    I understand the incentives “some” people use to tell people that they should never pay off their home. I use to be one. Try telling the people I know personally who lost everything, including their house in 9/11 that, they followed that advice. People here that are advising people to never pay their house off, are actually telling the people that are trying to be a part of the solution that they have low morals, and that they should be ashamed of themselves?!? You say that they are telling lies, and half truths, etc, etc. Let me ask you something, who is misleading who? You are not using the program, yet, you are the experienced expert on it. (Don’t say you don’t have to use it to be an expert on it. I said the same thing, but I was wrong). Now, in the face of “being moral”, if you tell someone that they should never pay their house off, what incentive do you have to tell them that?

    Lets be honest! The only reason you don’t want people to pay their house off is because you, yes you stand to gain big time from it. Why else would you advise this? You preach (just like I did) that you could WIN BIG by stripping (or if your more comfortable with “harvesting”) the equity out of your home. This is a very risky proposal, and the number one driving force behind it is greed. I know, I admit it, I was there. Not anymore!

    Have you taken a look at the real-estate market? Have you taken a look at the national savings rate! Have you taken a look at the lending market? Have you taken a look at the foreign financial situations? etc, etc, etc.

    The only NO risk debt, is NO debt. Sorry finance pros, but true.

    If all of the financial tools that have been in the market for decades are the “solution” to people’s financial problems, why did we have a negative savings rate in 2005? Oh, and 2006. Again, the first time since the great depression. Read the news papers, look at the market indicators.

    For all who truly care about the truth, do your homework. Look around and decide what is right for you. I am not “pushing” this program. It is not right for all, as nothing is. I do not care what the “financial Pro’s” on this site think, I am one of them, and you can not “Cat and Mouse” me. Have fun responding; I am going to go live my life! See ya!

  466. question to all,i am considering a mma. i have a first and second mort. told to refi second into heloc. balance on first is 197,000, balance on second is 69,000. i understand the program will pay off the second mort.first. my question is now my payment on the second is 489.00 a month, if i do the refi the payment interest only will be close to 700.00 a month.will i actually incur a 700.00 a month hit in my mma account or by putting in my paychecks this is offset.If this is offset what will the bank be charging me monthly for this loan amount?Nick

  467. As I was looking at my on line money merge account, I decided to google the words “money merge account”.

    All I can say is that there seems to be a lot of heated debate.

    If possible, I would like to add a few comments. Not as a person giving advice, but as an American homeowner.

    I have worked in finance and banking for many years. So I understand all of the in’s and out’s of paying off your mortgage vs. not. There is an endless debate that could be had on this subject. But for me, I purchased the program because I wanted a program that changes with my ups and downs, -and because I am an educated consumer.

    I started using this program about 3 years ago and I am now 9 months away from paying off my house, including my HELOC. Initially, my payoff analysis showed that I would pay my house off in 6.2 years. But for those of you who have never used the program, this system “learns” and adapts to every aspect of your household financial life. It’s not just about paying an extra $200 a month, or paying Bi-weekly payments, or paying your house off because you have an “extra $100k sitting in your pocket, or deciding on your own how much to transfer” LoL. It’s about real life. Life doesn’t just stay at “$200″ extra a month. It doesn’t sit still and collect dust, life moves up and down. People’s finances change, their expenses change. Everything changes.

    Not to get to deep, but 2005 was the first year since the great depression that as a nation, as a people, we had a -negative savings rate. That means that as an entire people, on average, we all spent more than we made that year. For those financial pro’s on this site, what do you think that means? It means that if there isn’t drastic change, and quick, this beautiful country that i love is either going down, or it will be owned by foreign countries. Goodbye freedom!

    Because of my background in finance and banking, I am very familiar with all of the financial language used to try and sway people into never paying off their mortgage, and “maxing” it out to the hilt to “potentially” gain huge financial rewards in the far and distant future. I understand this, because I use to advise this. I also understand that there is HUGE financial incentive for me to advise this, regardless of how well the investments I advised on perform.

    I still advise making sound investments. I have many investments which I continue to invest in, in conjunction with paying off my home.

    I understand the incentives “some” people use to tell people that they should never pay off their home. I use to be one. Try telling the people I know personally who lost everything, including their house in 9/11 that, they followed that advice. People here that are advising people to never pay their house off, are actually telling the people that are trying to be a part of the solution that they have low morals, and that they should be ashamed of themselves?!? You say that they are telling lies, and half truths, etc, etc. Let me ask you something, who is misleading who? You are not using the program, yet, you are the experienced expert on it. (Don’t say you don’t have to use it to be an expert on it. I said the same thing, but I was wrong). Now, in the face of “being moral”, if you tell someone that they should never pay their house off, what incentive do you have to tell them that?

    Lets be honest! The only reason you don’t want people to pay their house off is because you, yes you stand to gain big time from it. Why else would you advise this? You preach (just like I did) that you could WIN BIG by stripping (or if your more comfortable with “harvesting”) the equity out of your home. This is a very risky proposal, and the number one driving force behind it is greed. I know, I admit it, I was there. Not anymore!

    Have you taken a look at the real-estate market? Have you taken a look at the national savings rate! Have you taken a look at the lending market? Have you taken a look at the foreign financial situations? etc, etc, etc.

    The only NO risk debt, is NO debt. Sorry finance pros, but true.

    If all of the financial tools that have been in the market for decades are the “solution” to people’s financial problems, why did we have a negative savings rate in 2005? Oh, and 2006. Again, the first time since the great depression. Read the news papers, look at the market indicators.

    For all who truly care about the truth, do your homework. Look around and decide what is right for you. I am not “pushing” this program. It is not right for all, as nothing is. I do not care what the “financial Pro’s” on this site think, I am one of them, and you can not “Cat and Mouse” me. Have fun responding; I am going to go live my life! See ya!